Fly Selection or Presentation

Which is more important,fly selection or presentation, is a debate that is heard over and over again. I played with that question last night and here is what happened to me. The scene is a river with trout rising to a caddis hatch. The only place to stand is on a rock that has my back up against a wall (bridge abutment) that has shrubs in front of it. So no back cast possible. It was a roll cast evening, all the way, and a downstream dry fly as well.

I used elk hair caddis flies, size 14 and 16 and even a 12. I used tan, olive and black. I even used one I tied myself that I would not show to a human and only used it to prove a point. It was a fly so poorly tied that I don''t know why I kept it. Any way, here is what I found out. Regardless of fly selection (within reason), that when I had the right placement and the right drift I was catching fish. Not every cast, but a high percentage of them. It did not matter which of the above combinations I used, they all worked. When there was drag on the fly or I was outside of the main current flow where the fish were feeding I had zero takes.

For disclaimers, there has to be a reasonable imitation of something on the water i.e. no #10 hoppers for a midge hatch or damsel fly during an early March Brown hatch. I think that still water fishing might be different because of the time a fish has to inspect the fly. Obviously this test is one of many that has to be repeated, but I found it interesting none the less.

Obviously I need to test my theory again and again, but it seems to support my conclusions from nymphing last year, that using some universal type fly (Pheasant Tail or Gold Ribbed Hares Ear) if presented correctly they will work a reasonable percentage of the time regardless of the time of year.

Needless to say, the right fly with the right drift is always better than an approximate fly with the right drift, or the right fly with a drag.

jed

A lot of that question is related to where you are fishing.

Some rivers in Colorado, a fish will take a fly 2 sizes up or down from a natural. Color doesn't matter, etc....

On some other rivers, things have to be VERY close to natural. On the Roaring Fork a couple of years ago, I was fishing a caddis and not catching any fish. I grabbed a natural and noticed that the wings were a little lighter in color than what I was fishing. I trimmed some of the elk hair from the wing to make it lighter and started picking up fish after fish.

Jed:

Your theory of the right drift being more important than the exact fly is supported by the fact that there are general fly patterns that can catch fish in almost all situations and locations. These are often our "go to" flies. Flies like the hare's ear, pheasant tail, prince nymph, the adams, the stimulator, etc. If we consider the fly in your example, it is written in several books on fly selection that the order of importance in selecting a fly is form (#1), size (#2) and lastly color. The form being the form of a caddis versus a mayfly for example. So it would seem that if the fisherman selects the form correctly for what the fish is feeding on and gets relatively close to the size of the insect, with a well presented drift, he or she should have a good measure of success. From my experience, that decribes most of my fishing. However, those times when you go to the river, caddis or PMD,s or something are hatching and you throw every fly with that form to those rising fish and have very little if any takes is still puzzling. In casting flies for 4 or 5 hours you would think a few of those presentations would be correct to cause the fish to take the fly!

Any other thoughts on the subject out there?

Thanks for the topic Jed.

Dr Bob

85% Presentation, 15% Fly Selection

Rdancer,

For the sea run trout up here, I'd say you're right on

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85% Presentation, 15% Fly Selection

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JC, Can't wait for your article, ... sounds interesting http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif


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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
[url=http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/:99920]http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/[/url:99920]

There are guys who know what they are doing that *only* fish a certain pattern in different sizes -- an adams or an ausable wulff, for example. I have heard rumors of guys that only fish a size 16 adams -- that seems extreme to me.

I personally know guys that fish a skimpy black Hare's Ear during the Little Black Stonefly time, chocolate-brown HE during the Hendrickson hatch, a brown or light-brown HE when the Sulphurs start up, and so on. It works for them.

I agree with riverdancer's percentages. Generally, if the thing is moving (or not) right it will work.

Al Troth tells a story in "Wisdom of the Guides" about a client that went through 5+ flies while trying to catch one fish and swore that the problem was not having the right fly. Al proceded to pull a pice of yarn out of his wool sock, tie it on to the hook, and catch the fish on the first cast.

kphume, you must have been fishing in a different spot than when I fished the Roaring Fork. When I was there the water was way too fast for a fish to be that picky.

Hi there.

I have pointed, replying to other topics, that our fishing here in Colombia, South America is different from yours up there, we don't have big hatches like mayflies or caddis, but still have midges all year round and in some places stoneflies, dragon and damsel flies are more common also because most of our fisheries are stillwaters like dams and high mountain lakes.

For us here the presentation is almost everything, I would say 95% to 5%. In lakes we mostly use hare's ear or pheasant tail nymphs and if you present them right they will catch fish even if size or color is not exact to that of natural nymphs in the water. I have to say big trouts are caught with small flies, 14-18 and small trouts (6-10 inches) preferr flies in the 12-16 range. Big flies like 8-12 damselfly nymphs or 10 stimulators capture fish every other day.

Rivers are different but still presentation is everything and then color, size can vary two or even three sizes but you need to have the right fly to match what's on the water in terms of form to catch more fish. For rivers 90%-10% will do the math.

my 2 cents

Dave

But then there are times when it is hard to imagine what the most important things is.

I was fishing last weekend in Central PA with my step-son. We are roughly the same skill level in fly fishing in the advanced beginner to low mid-level area. We had Caddis, BWO and Sulphurs all on the water most of the afternoon. We each caught one fish early on a caddis and then fished a while with no success. Then, for about 2 hours I had fish after fish take my Adams, which I had switched to because none of the lies I used to match what was on the water were working. My step-son, fishing right next to me couldn't buy a fish. I gave him a fly the same as mine. I'm still catching he can't get anything. I even had a fish hit my fly half through my retrieve, not exactly the drag-free presentation I was trying for.

So it wasn't the fly and it didn't seem to be the presentation. About the only difference I can think of might have been the leader. I was likely using lighter tippet material than he was.

Wish I knew what made the difference, next time it might be him catching and me cursing and laughing!

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Fish more, work less!

Hmmm... methinks the original question is a comparing apples and oranges question at the best of times, and a straightjacket one has slipped into, tied down tight, and rendering oneself impotent at others.

I liken it to asking which is more important: the paint selection, or how the surface is painted. Would this be a question you would ask yourself?

Maybe I will wait for JC's next column and be set straight ;-)

Cheers,
Hans W


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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

Hans;

Definately the way you apply the paint. If you roll all in one direction, you see the strokes, but then again, if you brush in more than one direction you will see the strokes.

I suppose it all depends. . . http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

Don

Dan Bailey was asked, of all the fish he caught, how many would he have taken if he had only been fishing either an adams or a hare's ear. Over 90% was his reply.

I have a somewhat similar view; no matter what fly i use I DON'T catch fish.

Well if it were as simple as a math formula it wouldn't be half as fun. I agree with JC and other posts that point out that leaders are another important variable on the equation, but still to answer this question in particular we have to agree that the "right" leader was chosen when everybody talked about the right presentation, or not?

Dave

One thing seem fairly certain: you can often take fish on the "wrong" fly, as long as the presentation is done well. But it is rare to take fish on the "right" fly with a bad presentation.

Emerger

If you are fishing something like the West Branch of the Delaware where the fish see a lot of flies and have been caught before, presentation, including the right size tippet and absolutely zero drag, is most important, yet what fly you fish is important too. It needs to look pretty much like what they are feeding on, in size general appearance. They often want detail like quill bodies which imitate segmentation when they wont take a dubbed body. Most of these fish aren't at all easy to fool.

im with sjh. there are streams near me where in mid-summer, you gotta have the right size, color, profile, and presentation all together or you get nada. these fish get caught and released so many times per season, and always on a fly, that they have scars in their lips from being caught.

than there are other streams that seem like you can throw anything at anytime and catch trout.

so i guess angling pressure would be another very important variable to the equation.

I have one thing to say on this subject. "About the time you think you have the fish figured out they will make a fool out of you".

I could name hundreds of different times all the things talked about have or have not worked. It depends on the day the hatch the river and a lot of other things. All are important at one time or the other. That is what fishing is all about. The better you are at figuring these things out on the day you are fishing the better the fishman you become. Nothing is ever set in stone on a river. I have seen fish change what they were taking in about two minutes during a good hatch of PMD's. They went to ant's because the ant's were easier I guess? but that is what the wanted. I do know that if I would not have taken the time to look real close I would have missed them and caught nothing after they had switched.

I never consider Presentation as it is always in the forefront and it should be inbedded in a good fishermans brain for life. And it doesn't matter what type of fly you are using either.

That leaves the fly size shape and color and at times they can all be important. I start with the size. Then worry about the shape as they may be taking an emerger, dry and so on. Then the color. But like I said it could be any of the above or any combination of the above.

A good fly fisherman goes on the stream with an open mind and knowledge of what should happen on the day he is fishing. But he should also be prepaired to change what he thinks should be happening to what is really happening. That is were time on the water and experence comes into play.
A lot of this information is on the internet in the form of hatch charts. Most rivers in this country are covered anymore. The patterns needed and the times they come off is right there for anyone to see if they wish to. It is up to the fisherman if they wish to be prepaired or not.

Using one or two flies all the time is for someone that doesn't like to learn or experment. This also goes for the fellow that uses one type of fly all the time. They catch fish with those flies because they cast it enough to get some fish to react to it. And most of the patterns they use will cover several different flies at one time. Look at the Hair's Ear Nymph. It can cover no less than 6 different mayfly nymph's. Same with an Adams. It covers not only some of the mayflies but also caddis flies.
The problem comes when a good hatch that those flies do not cover is coming off. Then the guy that sticks with one or two flies ot one type of fly just goes home and forgets about the bad day he had. It is funny how we tend to remember those good days and not the bad one's.
But I say to each his own. If that is what they enjoy more power to them. I like to know what is going on and not be guessing if I can help it. I also like to be prepaired with the flies that I may need. Some say I carry to many flies. I always say I have just enough "In Case" While I do not have them all on me I have them in my boat or my truck if I am wade fishing. If need be I can get them in a few minutes times and I am ready to fish.
This is also the reason I do not have one fvorite pattern. I try and let the stream tell me what is going on when I get there even though I have a very good idea and am prepaired.
I still have blank day's just like everyone does. Anyone that says they don't is probably trying not to choke to death on the lie. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif But I also know that those days are fewer and fewer as times goes on. Good Fishing Ron

If Hans is a chicken, I want his feathers!

I do agree with Hans in a way. I think my real point is that the quality of the drift cannot be overlooked. That even when a fish will take almost any fly of a certain type i.e. a Caddis, if the drift is not right the fly will not be taken.

I also have experience casting a zillion different flies to rising fish and never getting a rise. In those heavily fished areas fish do learn to be overly selective, or at least more selective than I'd like them to be http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif and those situations require bot perfect fly selection and perfect drift.
jed

JC,

If anything... a rooster. Up early before you are (with a bit of help from the time zones LOL)

On the original question, and my response: You know what happened to the early bird waiting for the worm... it finally dawned on him.

Secondly, "presentation" is a very elusive term. Unless we can first agree on what encompasses "presentation", and also what is excluded, i.e. an agreed baseline, this discussion in my opinion will remain without resolution.

Cheers,
Hans W


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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

Ron,

Very nice reply ...

I like that approach too

Quote:

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A good fly fisherman goes on the stream with an open mind and knowledge of what should happen on the day he is fishing. But he should also be prepaired to change what he thinks should be happening to what is really happening.

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I have clients and friends that want to spend time with me 'cause I'm not to "stuck up" on tradition. ('cept that I like dries).

Many have specifically asked for me because they heard I like to break the mold and try different stuff, presentations, tactics ...

Some repeat anglers on the river up here got "bored" because Salmon fishing was starting (after 10 years) to get repetitive and predictable. Streamer swings with your eyes closed, nap at noon and bombers at dusk.

I'll sometimes start LATE (around the 3-4th day on a long week), hit some runs AFTER the morning crowd has swept through it with "classic" flies. Run out an oversized "trout" fly mounted on #6 salmon hooks.

I like to short swing wets too. That is, line up closer to the lie than normal for a downstream swing, mend the line DOWNSTREAM to get a massive "belly" in the line and rip the swing through the target zone.

How's that for thinking outside of the box. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif


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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
[url=http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/:ac05f]http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/[/url:ac05f]




[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 13 May 2005).]

Hans:

Of course the discussion will never see an end, that's the whole point.

It is up to the fish to determine what a good imitation is and a perfect presentation too. They are THE critic, we can only guess. That's where the fun of this art form rests.

Dave

10% presentation
10% fly selection
80% confidence

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Trouts don't live in ugly places