would you buy from a small flyfishing company

Over the last few years there have been a few small top end fly fishing company's pop up around the country. I am curios if you would buy a rod or reel from a small company? some new company's import product (rods or reels) and resell them for cheap. Maybe add some engraving or have their own colors but basically are an import company. There are some others that build their product here and are competing with top end product at the upper levels of the price range. These company's are designing and building their own products. I am curios if you go into a fly shop and they carry Sage, Scott, Orvis ect. and a lesser known product advertizing top performance and by examining the product has top of the line components. Would you feel comfortable spending your money on a small company that you may of not heard of before?
-Jeff

Absolutely, if the product is good quality, and priced acceptably. I nearly danced a jig when Orvis finally offered a quality machined single action reel at a fair price-point. I looked high-and-low for exactly that from anybody...but it was not to be found. I think the niche for a new company right now is not "the next best thing", but rather redefining some of the classics that the others have left behind but folks still want.

Just my two cents.

Ralph

If I thought the product was something I'd like, I'd support the shop in a NY minute. Hey, I just got a new catalog that had some Sage fly rods at over $1,000 and a few other brands at over $800! Are these companies kidding. I have about a dozen rods I built on blanks and the total cost to build each rod was easily less than $75. I've had some excellent casters try these rods and they gave them great reviews and couldn't believe what they cost to build. By the way, what does 'Top End' mean? Top price? Top cosmetics? It certainly cannot mean 'top performance' because that entirely depends on the user.

Allan

If I had years of experience and knowledge in the FF world, yes, but with my limited knowledge, I would be hesitant to. Would also depend on if I was allowed to take a demo out for a "spin" or whether I could return the rod/reel if in good/NIB condition and exchange for a "name brand". Most local shops will let you demo their stuff so you have a "idea" if you like it or not but every shop is different due to different owners.

On something like a high end rod, if I'd never heard of the company, I'd do some research first. But there are a number of small rod companies, that I know something about, and I would have no qualms about buying their products.

I personally would not. Too many small companies go belly up and you end up with a rod that/reel that has no service and no value on resale.

It would have to be a very unusual product that has advantages above and beyond comparable products. The LAW vise would be an example.

Where would Cabela's be today if no one bought their mail order flies in 1961? Almost all businesses start out small. Some make it, some don't. When Sportsman Warehouse opened their big outdoors store in Victorville, CA a few years ago we were all happy to have a place to shop. They stayed open less than 6 months and closed their doors.

This is a very good question and should generate some good chatter. I, for one, am not "hung up" on name brands for my fly fishing equipment. I have way too many rods and reels now and that is just a part of this sport. I have reels with the "big name/well known" brands on them and I have reels with absolutely no names on them. I have fly rods with the "big name/well known" on them and I have fly rods with absolutely no names on them. For my everyday fishing I use a 9' 5wt that was developed by a small company and it has no name on it and I could care less about where it was assembled. This rod just feels good in my hand, casts effortlessly, very light in the hand and just does everything I want from a fly rod. I have had others ask to use it and they are impressed until they discover it is not a "big name" brand. The reel on this rod has no name on it and is smooth as butter. I get the same responses from others who have used it. They are very impressed until they discover it has no "big name" on it. Fly rods and reels, to me, are just tools and nothing more and as long as these "tools" are of good quality and perform well for me, I will continue to use them. I do not "hang out at the fly shops" and participate in "show and tell" with equipment. I just go fishing as much as I possibly can and enjoy the sport.

If a person is a well known guide and makes their living by doing this, then they probably have a sponsor and they need to promote their sponsor's gear because the sponsor is saving them a ton of money for equipment plus the sponsor may be doing some free PR for the guide. The clients of the guide will probably break more rods and reels then one could afford to replace, so, the sponsor takes care of that and, therefore, the guide needs to use the big name brand products and needs to promote them.

This is a really loaded question and the answers will be many because it all depends on who and what the person using the equipment is using it for. I think a person getting into the fly fishing sport will start out with no name equipment or at least the "bottom priced" equipment to see if fly fishing is something they want to do and then they will progress up the price range with their equipment until they find what works for them. Some fly fish because the sport allows them to "rub shoulders" with someone who they feel will be able to do something for them and they want to be using the "big name" products just for show. Some just like to be "walking billboards" and "talking" fly fishing. Some are guides and this dictates what equipment they will be purchasing and they feel that the higher priced equipment shows their clients how good of a guide they are. Then you have fly fishermen like me, who just enjoys the rivers, the surroundings, the peace and quiet, the challenge and the solitude. I do not need top end equipment to enjoy what I enjoy the most from fly fishing. I just need equipment that is comfortable to fish with all day and equipment that gets the job done and I can afford.

I honestly feel that there is a "corner" in the fly fishing equipment market now that more equipment companies need to address and that is good quality at an affordable price. I feel there are a lot of fly fishermen, like me, who started out with less costly equipment and as the years went by, they have purchased the higher priced equipment and are now back to using the mid-priced equipment because they can no longer afford the "top-end" and have discovered that the mid-priced equipment will produce the same results as name brand equipment but affordable. There have been too many experiments performed where a very good caster is handed a top brand expensive rod and a mid priced rod and neither is marked and the very good caster struggles to be able to tell the two apart.

It all boils down to purchasing and using what you can afford and purchasing equipment that works for you.

Everything I have stated so far is just my feelings and thoughts and is not meant to ruffle anyone's feathers. To each their own as long as they enjoy using a fly rod and reel and enjoy the sport.

One key factor not really discussed above is warranty. If you wanted to compete at the high end of the market, you'd be up against established companies, around for decades, that often back up their top of the line products with extended or lifetime warranties. My hesitance would be in wondering whether the new company would be around long enough to service or replace equipment years hence.

This summer I had the chance to tour the rod shop at Orvis in Manchester, Vermont. One of the striking things is how much of their floor space was devoted to refurbishing or replacing warranteed merchandise. The tour guide said that in order to effectively fulfill their 25 year warranties, they had to continue to manufacture or have in inventory all products made and sold by them since 1988. That's a pretty big commitment and might give a small new high end company pause.

I AM buying new equipment from here next. I have no affiliation with them. look at the pics, and tell me they are not familiar...

http://www.aliexpress.com/category/1...218&isrefine=y

While I make a point to support the small retailer, I hate dealing with small manufacturers/suppliers, unless as Silver Creek pointed out, they offer something unique, and even then I am hesitant.

There are a ton of bargain basement hook manufacturers for example these days, but I am picky about what hooks I use but once adopted when I need them I need them NOW, and not when the next slow boat from China arrives. For something like a vise, I need to know the manufacturer will be around for spare parts in 10 years. For rods, reels, waders etc. with warranties as mickmcco argues, I want to know they will be there to support that warranty.

The fly fishing industry if filled with small time operations becoming established brands. TFO and Echo for example are relatively new kids on the block but have made some very big inroads. Their product, however, was sufficient differentiated by price from the norm that they were able to create a new market in their own right. There is still some room at the bottom end of the price scale, but that is also where the lowest profits lie...

In a nutshell, my fly fishing dollars go overwhelminly to established companies, not because of name recognition, but because of the past history and anticipated longevity. YMMV.

There are no big fly fishing companies. Even Orvis and Sage are small by corporate standards. Scott, Winsto St. Croix, all very small companies by corporation standards.Jeff

Depends on the item.
Would not do so with a rod. One of my favorite rods is the Hardy Zenith. It uses a proprietary Syntrex blank which somehow embeds nano sized mica particles throughout the blank. These big rod companies spend years developing the design and materials to bring about strong, lightweight pleasures to cast.

When it comes to small artisans who use common materials, I would. There are some very talented, relatively small operations making great vises and reels, I believe.

I think Warren is really on the right track with this. I have only been fly fishing for about two years and started with a Big5 Sports special, which was perfectly fine until the tip decided to go swimming when a tree trout broke the leader. Now I have a Reddington CT 8'6" 5wt, with a Reddington reel. Got these for Christmas last year to replace the Big5 special. Now I don't know anything about the big name, over priced rods and reels, but i do like what i have.

But I do know golf, having played it for more than 40 years and tried about every brand of club there is, including the small shop no names. And there is the same situation in that sport. There is the name equipment with high prices and then there is the second tier with frequently just as good products at a fraction of the cost. I started with a $69 set of Northwestern clubs and only replaced the woods in the 20 years I used them and played as well or better than most the people I played with and many of them playing with top tier clubs. Then I had the chance to buy a set of top name, pro level irons for a fraction of their retail cost. The guy selling them bought and got rid of 2 - 3 sets of top tier irons every year, selling for a fraction of what he paid. Biggest mistake I ever made golf wise. Absolutely hated playing with those clubs and consequently started losing interest in the game. Finally bit the bullet and bought a set of knock off irons and really enjoyed what I played with for another 10 years.

More than a decade ago I got the bug for "better" clubs and spent 6 months hitting everything in the club houses, golf shops and demo days, paring down the list of acceptable clubs until I was down to 2 brands, both top tier manufacturers, both name brands and well respected. And after hitting just those two several times, I chose the set that was $400 less, not because of price, but because I couldn't tell $400 worth of difference. Been playing these clubs for more than a decade now, and still can't find newer clubs that will help me play better. And the manufacturer of the clubs I bought is no longer in existence, and frankly after more than a decade with these clubs, I don't care.

My suggestion, not qualified to give advice here, go out and try anything and everything you think you want, small shop or big name, find what you like and can cast best with, no matter what the name or lack there of, and stick with it. Go and try some of the newest, latest and greatest once in a while, and see if it would make you a better caster, buy it no matter what the cost. If not, keep using what you have and enjoy your hobby. I do, with what many would call second class tools, for both golf and fly fishing.

Who doesn't like finding a bargain, especially on some quality item or product. But the bottom line for me is still trying to buy "Made in the USA".

Thanks for the replies,
My question was not directed to the start ups offering cheaper products but those making top level rods and reels for a price comparable to the top end name brands. With these company's you may not have as much history with their lifetime warranty but when you call the company the owner may answer the phone. does a small company that is pushing the 100% made in USA have a chance to break in to the High end market?

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

Depends on the item.
Would not do so with a rod. One of my favorite rods is the Hardy Zenith. It uses a proprietary Syntrex blank which somehow embeds nano sized mica particles throughout the blank. These big rod companies spend years developing the design and materials to bring about strong, lightweight pleasures to cast.

When it comes to small artisans who use common materials, I would. There are some very talented, relatively small operations making great vises and reels, I believe.

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Byron,
as much as the rod manufacturers would like you to believe they are developing the graphite technology this is not really true. Materials have been developed for the aerospace and military and anyone with a checkbook can buy them (there are some that can only be used by US residents for military security purposes i have read in one manufactures adds). In the would of graphite, fishing rods are a very small player. The closely guarded secrets are the manufacturing techniques.

My first thought is Burkheimer - they don't come much smaller than that. Wonder how they got their start?

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Originally Posted by herefishy

My first thought is Burkheimer - they don't come much smaller than that. Wonder how they got their start?

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Burkheimer and Meiser are two companies that come to mind that I would have no problems buying from.

I'm not as concerned about warrantees as some. The companies mentioned above have track records. There is no guarantee they will be around in 10 years (Sage either for that matter). But, if I break a rod 10 years down the road, it's served its purpose and it's probably my fault anyway.

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Originally Posted by birddog

Byron,
as much as the rod manufacturers would like you to believe they are developing the graphite technology this is not really true. Materials have been developed for the aerospace and military and anyone with a checkbook can buy them (there are some that can only be used by US residents for military security purposes i have read in one manufactures adds). In the would of graphite, fishing rods are a very small player. The closely guarded secrets are the manufacturing techniques.

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Actually, we are beyond graphite now. We are in Boron.
The Hardy Syntrex rods are proprietary and can't be used by other rod manufacturers. If it were available to all, other companies would be building them as well.
In addition, the design/taper of the rods represent many man-years of research and field testing.
With any product, the manufacturer must recoup all their R&D. Granted, a lot of what gets built into the cost of rods is advertising and retailers' compensation. But, that's always been the case in our economic system.

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Originally Posted by maodiver

I AM buying new equipment from here next. I have no affiliation with them. look at the pics, and tell me they are not familiar...

http://www.aliexpress.com/category/1...218&isrefine=y

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Have you ordered from that site before? I only ask because I have heard some horror stories, and most of the reviews of the site I've seen are not favorable. Some people seem to love it others got the short straw as it were.


But for me buying from a small company it would really depend on what I was buying and what the quality looked like. I got hooks from Allen when they had just started and was very happy with what I got, and I still get hooks from them. I also own a reel from them as well now.

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Originally Posted by birddog

Thanks for the replies,
does a small company that is pushing the 100% made in USA have a chance to break in to the High end market?

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Of course they do. Think about who makes the top-end cane rods.

Thanks for the replies. Certainly recieved some interesting point of view
-Jeff

If they had a product I liked and wanted--YES!

Bird dog, in a word yes, every large fly fishing company has to start some place. I remember when Sage first started they did not have the name they do now. for every Orvis or Hardy there are 20 that fail to last more than 10 years. Look back at old FF magazines 70's or 80's a lot of those companies even some big ones have gone by the way side. So if it is something you want and is quality go for it. One piece of advice if it is a rod cast it, a fly rod is the most personal piece of equipment, what I or anyone else like you may hate.
on another note, not rtying to scold anyone. But Byron the Sintrix is the name of the graphite not the nano silca binder. Gloomis, St.coix, and TFO all use the silca nano binder in some of their rods. the actual silca nano thermoplastic is a 3M product deveolped for aircraft. I guide out of a shop that sells Hardy along with a buch of other rod brands. I use Hardy becuase I have alway had a soft spot for thier reels and I fell in love with the Zenith rod when I cast the prototype on the shop pond a few years ago. It did not evn have a name yet or production date but I put my name in for one, now I have several.