Sunrise, the other white meat...

If you are like me, you know fly fishing (and tying) is at least "snazzy" if not being downright "foo-foo".Sunrise, being the bottom feeder flytying company from India, keeps churning out stuff for the low end of the market.Do you have bits and pieces of Sunrise stuff in your kit?I honestly like a lot of their stuff. I have a cheap 3 inch Surise scissors that fit me perfectly. Their bobbins are all I use, even though I dabbled in excactly one ceramic. My first vise, an incredibly no-nonsense vise no longer made, held hooks as well as any other cheap vise and was cheaper to boot. I still have it.Anyone else wanna fess up about using some Sunrise stuff as your primary tools? "You can have my Sunrise scissors when you pry them from my cold dead hands." grin.

I have a whip finisher from them that works fine; I don't use it any more since about the only time I whip finish is by hand on saltwater flies, but it is functional. Only bobbins I've used in the past 20 years have been S & M; think I paid about $5.00.

Regards,
Scott

Never heard of them. If I needed stuff, I'd certainly use them..

But I got most of my tools a long time ago....

Other than my vise, everything was cheap or I made it myself....Scissors from WalMart, hackle pliers from a catalog (less than two bucks back then), whip finisher from a bargain bin at a closeout...stuff like that.

But I'm really cheap, which is why most of my materials come from the craft store, hardware store, etc....haven't bought from a 'fly shop' in a long time.....if I need specific fly tying stuff, I get it online.

Buddy

You and me both Buddy. I can feel for the plight of the Brick and Mortar fly shops...but I can't pay for them...the only things I buy from a traditional fly shop are from the clearance bins...

Not sure why buying the best tools you can is considered "foo-foo," but if that is the word, so be it. Sunrise makes perfectly acceptable cheap tools for beginners and casual tiers, but there are better tools. Some are moderately more expensive, some are a lot more expensive, but many are much higher quality and make tying that much easier, more efficient, and enjoyable. YMMV.

We need a troll emoticon.

A good rule of thumb with tools, from mechanics to woodworking to fly tying, is buy the best tool you can afford. I was talking tools with a friend who worked in FedEx's aviation maintenance organization. Craftsman's tools came up, he told me I would not find many in the mechanic's boxes, they provide their own tools and are responsible for having the right tools to do their jobs they want a good tool not a good guarantee.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse

A good rule of thumb with tools, from mechanics to woodworking to fly tying, is buy the best tool you can afford. I was talking tools with a friend who worked in FedEx's aviation maintenance organization. Craftsman's tools came up, he told me I would not find many in the mechanic's boxes, they provide their own tools and are responsible for having the right tools to do their jobs they want a good tool not a good guarantee.

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And were I a mechanic, I would follow the same rule...however....being a teacher, who uses tools as needed instead of every minute, I will grab craftsman, etc. For me, having a lifetime guarantee is very important, and the tool will proabably not wear out from use. I am also much more likely to find Craftsman than Mac/snap-on/etc at a garage sale.

Hey , I started with cheap tools like most people but I soon found out why some tools cost so much more. In a word , quality. The headaches that can be saved are well worth the extra money for me. There are a few tools out there that are both inexpensive and quality like the S&M bobbins that ScottP spoke of but not many. If you want great function and long lasting get ready to pony up the bread because in most cases quality is not cheap. Just my 2 cents.

There is often a difference between 'quality' and 'cost'....

It's a fact of business life that the 'fly tying tools' you see for sale in ANY fly shop are more expensive than similar quality tools sold online or for other purposes. There are 'fly tying' brands that sell things like scissors or pliers that cost more than other brands intended for other uses. Fiskars makes scissors for the sewing/craft markets. They make and sell more scissors in one day than the 'fly tying' brands do in a year. Their quality is outstanding, and yet, surprisingly, they tend to be less expensive than what you'd see in a fly shop. If you go to the hardware store, you can buy Channel Loc or such 'mainstream' pliers, wire cutters, and things for les than you'd pay for 'debarbing' pliers in a fly shop (and have more options).

Some tools, like vises, require specialized engineering and high quality materials to function properly. Mine cost close to $500, and I beleive it was great price for a fantastic product. It will last a lifetime. My whip finisher cost .99. It is also a specialty tool, made of brass and stainless steel...but it doesn't 'rotate' so the store was blowing it out because, at that time, 'rotating' ones were what folks (not me, though) preferred. Mine has lasted over twenty years and still looks brand new. My 'cheapie less than $2' hackle pliers are the simple 'english' style...don't have clue where they were made, but I spent several hours polishing, tweaking, adjusting the things until they are 'perfect' for me. Couldn't buy a 'better' pair for ANY price now, because even the high dollar ones don't come properly finihsed or adjusted. I have a hand made dubbing twister, which I use alot. Total cost in materials was less than five bucks, but it's ideal for my tying style. No one sells one like it, or even close. It's as close to unbreakable as you can get. Rather than 'buy' a bodkin, I use an old Exacto Knife handle with a needle in it. I can change the needle, both for wear or size when needed. Perfect tool. Since I already had the needles and handle, it was 'free'. I have set of machinist tweezers from the 50s that my grandfather left us. High quality, didn't cost me a dime. Can't even buy that kind of tool anymore. I use a 'sewing Awl' for a lot of stuff, chromed steel with a ruberized handle-$4 at JoAnns. A machinist friend of mine let me use his equipment to make a set of hair stackers. Solid brass, cost around five bucks in material and I got to spend a few hours in the company of a master machinist while I made them...THAT was priceless.

Also, we have the issue of 'how good does it have to be?'. A cheap pair of pliers from the dollar store will last for several lifetimes if all you are using them for is debarbing hooks. Same with cheap wirecutters from the same source...if you are just cutting quills and fly tying wires, you don't NEED a $20-$50 pair of high end wire cutters. If you only tie a few dozen flies a year, you probably will do just fine with a $40 vise. If you are not a very prolific tyer, a couple of inexpensive wire bobbins are all you really need. If you tie thousands of trout flies, an automatic bobbin might be worth your money. You can cut thread just fine with inexpensive embroidery scissors from the sewing section at WalMart (mabe better, they've been making these things for sewing for a few centuries now, they do work quite well). You can buy curved and straight bladed 'serrated edge' Fiskars scissors for cutting hair if you want to spend a bit more (still WAY less than similar 'fly tying' scissors).

Next time you buy a tool for fly tying, ask yourself, how much tool do I really need? This ain't saving lives, or working on something that will change someones life if it fails. All we are doing here is making fishing stuff, the 'best 'result of which will see the product thrown into the water and chewed to rags by some fish. Lighten up, it's certainly not even remotely important how much your hair stacker cost.....

I'd rather save the dough and have that money for stuff like Gas so I can actually afford to GO fishing.....

But I am cheap (but not, I think, foolish).

Buddy

Sometimes we think we are buying quality only to find the items is not what it appears to be or the company policy has changed. I have a Craftsman jig saw hanging on my peg board instead of the workbench because it will no long hold a blade and I have not been able to obtain a replacement part; I have a Troy Bilt lawn mower I found out was manufactured by MTD. My expectations for MTD and Troy Bilt were entirely different. I have a broken Craftsman vise lying on my shop floor, I will see how good their warranty is on that, so far I have not been impressed. I have a cheap set of end wrenchs I bought in 1966, they have never failed me, but I knew they were cheap and have never really stress the open end wrenches because I do not like skinned knuckles. I knew what they were and used them accordingly. I remember as a kid being so happy when I could afford to buy a Case pocket knife instead of a Kutmaster.

More years ago than I want to remember, I started out with a "beginner's" tying kit just to see if I would enjoy fly tying and all kits contain the lesser quality of tying tools. After finding out that fly tying was something I really enjoyed and some of the "kit" tools started going bad, I have replaced them with higher quality tools which make tying more enjoyable. I am thankful that there are still companies out there still providing the lesser quality tools because "beginners" would never be able to give tying a try if they could not afford the tying tools. When I started providing classes for beginners in fly tying, I had to furnish all the hand tools and vises for the students and I would never have been able to do that if it was not for the lesser quality of vises and tools available to me to purchase. Without the less expensive fly tying tools, fly rods and reels we would not be able to attract new people to this great sport. I am thankful to Sunrise and the other companies for their products. We really do need them to get more new tyers and fly fishermen/women into the sport. After they discover how wonderful this sport is, they can determine if they want to upgrade their tying tools and equipment.

Warren, I think the word enjoyable is what all my fishing purchases turn off of - more comfortable boots, lighter rods that don't wear me out, bobbins that don't snag the thread, thread that doesn't break when it shouldn't, floating stuff that doesn't sink, sinking stuff that stays down, and all the other fun stuff.

That first Sunrise vice put me into about 2000 flies before jaw splay and metal migration, for want of a better term, caused me to "upgrade." I ended up buying two other low end vices with more features but no better quality. And then finally splurged on an HMH Spartan, which shows very little wear after .... I'd guess ... 4000 flies. But the rest of my tools remain low budget because they continue to function well. So my go to scissors, bobbin, bodkin, and hackle pliers remain Sunrise. I don't consider admitting this trolling, folks. Buddy, thanks for the private message. I don't do much of that, so I'm responding in public for all to see.

I believe my old English style hackle pliers were Sunrise (I know I paid about $1.50); took a few minutes with some very fine wet-dry sandpaper to get the jaws flat and even but they worked like champs after that. I think I almost cried when I lost them.

Regards,
Scott

Budget tools are fine to a point. The question is how much do you use them. I have gone through many cheap bobbin holders. At one point I was only getting about 3 weeks out of one. Then I discovered ceramic and haven't worn one out since. Dubbing needles I make myself. I use two, one for general work which is quite heavy duty, and another made from a sewing machine needle for fine work particularly splitting thread.

Where I differ from many is that I view scissors as a consumable. Over the years I have used many different kinds. I now use cheap embroidery scissors. I can get about 9 to 12 months out of a pair. Then they usually get given away to people who don't need such a fine edge. The most expensive I have used only lasted me about 3 years. The cost of expensive scissors just isn't worth the return you get. Buying cheap and often is less expensive than the top end ones.

This summer I have a couple of workshops to run. I'll need about 10 vices for them. There is no way I can afford to buy top end vices in that quantity (I couldn't even replace mine at the moment). All that is needed is a way to get people tying. Most of the tools to go with them will be Sunrise or similar.

Cheers,
A.

to answer directy:
I started out with a Sunrise vise, and our club still uses them and the tools for the Beginners' Class - as others have mentioned. I still use their dubbing twister, hackle guard, ceramic bobbins, and best of all - their dubbing rake (it did need to be sharpened, but so what). All my tools do the job, and fortunately some of them (Sunrise) didn't cost much - although some of them did.