Here’s another neophyte quiz for you guys. This time the topic is tying thread. I’ve noticed that thread comes in different sizes, brands, and materials. I get the size thing. That makes sense to me so far. What about brands. What really is the difference between say Danville and Uni-thread? Will a tier eventually need or want both? Why? How about materials? Other than personal preferance, is there any real reason for the different thread materials?
Please read Parnelli’s thread article here. I think you will find it enlightening.
Thanks, that answers some of my questions and is partially what I was looking for. What it doesn’t cover, and what I’m most interested in is the why’s of picking thread. Why would I use one type over another? Can I do it all with one type of thread in different sizes, or do I really need many of the varieties that are out there?
larger thread is easier to use on big flies and may be stronger. smaller threasd is much easier to use on tiny flies. I usually just use black 6/0 danvilles for most flies. It will show through on light colored flies and that is one reason to have a lighter color available. On some flies the thread is part of the visible body of the fly and that is another reason. Saltwater tyers would probably not care for the number of wraps of 6/0 it takes to cover the hook which is a reason to use 3/0 or size A. Those who spin big bunches of deer hair swear by gel spun thread. I usually just use a lot of smaller bunches but it doesn’t make as nice a bass bug that way. Best would be to ask about thread for a specific fly if you have doubts. You will get lots of opinions to sort out.
It depends on what kind of tying you’re doing. Some threads are “flat” and you really those for applications where you’re trying to make a smooth covering of thread, such as an underbody for floss, or for a smooth head on a presentation fly. You can’t do this with thread that’s essentially monofilament. OTOH, that mono can be made quite slender if you’re tying midges, and in larger sizes may be just what the doctor ordered for spinning deer hair. If you’re tying thread bodied soft hackles, you’re probably going to use silk thread, for various reasons. If you ever want to use a split-thread dubbing loop, you need a thread which is stranded so that it can split (again, monofilament won’t work.)
Do you need a dozen different types of thread? No, especially if most of your tying is of one style of fly. Is it useful to have different types? Yes, you have more flexibility in the techniques available to you.
For 70% of my tying, I use UNI thread, either in 6/0 or 8/0, depending on the size of the fly and what I’m trying to do. Even on a size 22 midge there are times when 6/0 thread is appropriate.
The other 30% of the time, I’m tying non-trout flies. For saltwater and warmwater I really prefer Ultra thread, 140 denier. I like the way it lays on clouser and bendback heads. I’ve tried the 210, and it’s OK, the larger thread just ends up a bit lumpier if I’m not epoxying. The fish couldn’t tell the difference, but sometimes I’m tying as much to please myself as the fish.
For egg patterns and some flies that use lots of tightly bound hair, I use Gel Spun Poly. I really don’t like that thread, as it is so slippery, but you need it to really torque down on materials.
I also have some spools of Danville and Gudebrod. Hate 'em. Can’t tie without significant breakage with either - I think it’s a mental block.
For my trout flies, I like Uni 8/0 a lot - it’s very strong and still allows me to keep thread buildup at a minimum; I’ll use 6/0 for some of the larger stuff, especially foam flies where the 8/0 can cut the foam. I also like Gudebrod 10/0 for smaller flies (#18 on down) since it’s a “flat” thread and lays down so well and Danville 6/0 for flies where I use split-thread for dubbing loops (Gudebrod 10/0 works well here too). I use flat wax nylon for buggers/bunny flies and some saltwater, Danville mono thread for the rest of the saltwater. For spinning deer hair, 6/0 Uni for small flies and Danville Flymaster + for the bigger stuff.
It’s a function of the kind of flies you tie - if I were doing mostly Catskill dries, I’d be perfectly happy with the Gudebrod 10/0 (or UTC 70). I tie a lot of hairwing flies (Wulffs, Trudes, etc) and like something I can lean on a little more so that’s why I use the Uni a lot. I’d suggest you play around with the different threads and see what you like; a lot of this is just personnal preference.
Regards,
Scott
To answer your question, yes you will need more than one type of thread including silk.
The different manufacturers also have different shades of thread, although the Dette’s and Darbee’s only used white or black.
Chris Helms, whitetail flies, also has a very good article on thread if you are interested.
FF,
Maybe you’ve already figured it out by now, but just in case it isn’t murky enough already:
No, you don’t ‘need’ several diferent types of thread. You can get by quite nicely with only one type of thread.
And, yes, you can decide that you may want many different types.
It all depends on how far into the dark side of fly tying you want to get. You could keep it quite simple. You could easily tie 99% of the trout flies out there with size 8/0 black thread from whichever manufacturer you decide to like, and it wouldn’t effect your catch rate a bit.
You could also buy fifteen different colors, each in several sizes, and then also get each set in several different types and materials of thread. Then you could tie a bunch of flies with each and see for yourself which exact thread you like for each particular fly.
Up to you which way you go. What happens to most of us is we buy what we find at the fly shop and make do until we find a particular need for a certain type of thread. Sometimes we don’t like what we get, and go buy something else until we find what we want.
Eventually you’ll develope your own preferences.
Buddy
My experiences with thread pretty much mirrors Buddy’s.
98% of my thread is UTC, in 70 and 140 Denier. It is a stranded “flat” thread, that can be unwound to lay flat, or wound to build bulk or for instances where a stronger hold is needed. (By winding the thread tighter, it concentrates the fibers, increasing it’s strength and allowing you to pull the thread tighter where a hard hold is needed.)
I bought a spool of Gudebrod’s 8/0, but quit trying to use it after breaking it too many times on a couple of flies. I have a spool of the Danville 210, and it’s OK, but that’s some large thread, so it’s uses, for me, are limited.
I also have a couple of spools of mono thread for special purposes. It’s stiffnes makes it more difficult to work with, including being more difficult to get started on the hook. Give it a little bit of slack before it’s bound on good, and you’re starting over.
As a reference, in my tying, a size 1 hook is huge. Sizes 10 thru 16 make up the vast majority of the flies I fish.
I hope this helps some.
Kirk
Thanks for the replies. You’ve definately answered my questions.
The biggest question is what patterns are you tying? If you’re tying only for salt water for instance, don’t waste your money on anything smaller then 3/0. If your only tying for trout, 6/0 and down like the others said. Bass and/or pike? at least 3/0 on the small end of the scale is average.
I have a couple spools of 8/0 that were given to me and will likely dry rot before I use it up. I only use 6/0 if I absolutely have to. I just don’t tie many patterns that small. For most of my tying I use 3/0, Kevlar and GSP(for spinning hair).
Bottom line, use whatever the pattern calls for. Most patterns use a thread size that the pattern inventor thought was right. But as the pattern gets smaller or larger to fit your local water the thread can get smaller or larger as well.
I’ve tried several types of thread: Uni, GSP, Kevlar, and several Danville’s
The Uni threads I’ve tried have no stretch, so they break without warning when you reach their maximum weight rating. They also don’t whip finish as easily as others. If you’re new to tying, these may be frustrating.
I do a lot of deer hair bugs. Kevlar is very strong, but it cuts hairs too easily. I think it’s unnecessarily strong. It doesn’t seem to stay knotted when you’re finished tying as I recall (It’s been a while since I’ve used it though)
GSP has one good quality: Very VERY strong! Bad qualities: Way more slippery than necessary, and hard to cut (you have to keep tension on it or it slips through the scissors). Yeah I know, Chris Helm loves it, but I hate it. Yes the deer hair spins well, but you have to constantly apply super glue to make sure it STOPS spinning once the hair is in position. If you love to spend 2 hrs tying 1 fly, give it a try. It isn’t cheap either ($3 to $4 for ONLY 50 yds). If you know how to spin hair properly you don’t need ultra slippery thread.
This brings us to Danville Nylon. I love it. It is so versatile. I prefer waxed because it whip finishes very well. Because it’s nylon, it stretches before breaking, so you can get a feel for when you’re getting close to that breaking point.
Danville Flat Waxed Nylon, 210 denier, works very well for spinning (but not OVER spinning) deer hair. Plus it will stay put till you’re done tying a bug. Then you trim the belly of the bug flat and apply superglue in a line where the hook shank is. One application of super glue at the end, instead of 12 times during tying.
I use flymaster and flymaster plus (both waxed) in 70, 140, and 210 denier, on all other flies with very satisfactory results.
I don’t use head cement on them either (after watching a Doug Swisher video on attractors) Just do 2 or three whip finishes (if you do it by hand, you can do them all faster than you can open a bottle of cement).
Since they are waxed they repel water, so you get some added protection against hook rust.
I think the problem most tyers have is that they think they have to tie flies extremely tight. This actually is counter productive as it can damage the materials and make them break and fall out later (ESPECIALLY deer hair).
AK Best visited our club here in Nebraska and said 2 or 3 snug wraps of thread per material as you tie is plenty. This is one of my best lessons. Try tying a fly this way and then when you’re finished, try pulling any of the materials out. They will probably rip or break before they slide out. Any more than that is overkill and money down the drain.
I have bass bugs in my boxes that I tied several seasons ago, that are still holding up from these methods, though they are fish-chewed and faded.
I recommend to everyone to read AK Best’s book ‘Production Fly Tying’.
Oddly enough he does not discuss thread types, but if you look at the photos of his tying bench and the close-ups of his bobbins, you will see many spools of waxed Danville threads. (No black spools of Uni-threads)
He is one of the most famous tyers in the world. He ties THOUSANDS of DOZENS of flies each year. He is an expert in fly tying efficiency.
I think many of these threads are just to get people to spend more money.
If they come out with something 2 times stronger than GSP, everyone will think they need that one next, even if it costs $6 per spool.
If I could only have one style of thread, it would probably be Waxed Flymaster+ 140 denier. I think I could make it work for all the warm water flies I tie from nymphs to bugs from size 14 and larger if I had to. If I did mostly trout fishing, I’d say Flymaster 6/0 (70 denier) for smaller stuff.
Spend more money on fly line, less on thread.
I recommend you buy 1 spool of black thread of each major brand/type, then tie them side by side and see what you like. Then go with that. Some tyers love Uni’s, GSP etc. and some don’t. Just don’t buy too many of one kind, till you know what you like.
Sorry for the ‘Testament’, but I wish someone explained this stuff to me before I spent so much money on threads.
Bill
Thanks Bill. All advice, opinions, and experiences are appreciated.
You’re quite welcome. My pleasure. I love helping other fly fishermen. Especially the ones who haven’t even discovered fly fishing yet.
Bill