Kant of a Mayfly's Wing at rest

[Tig]

I have always wondered why more patterns don't have the wings on a slant. Then I read the late JC's article here about the foot print insects leave on the water while resting on the surface. If I am not mistaken his conclusion was that the fish has already committed or turned from a fly based on the foot print even before the wing comes into their window of vision. I have since only added wings when I want a fly that looks good to me. Interesting though when you read Swishers and Richards they advocated hackless flies. Whatever gets er done.

[Byron haugh]

I have always wondered why more patterns don't have the wings on a slant. Then I read the late JC's article here about the foot print insects leave on the water while resting on the surface. If I am not mistaken his conclusion was that the fish has already committed or turned from a fly based on the foot print even before the wing comes into their window of vision. I have since only added wings when I want a fly that looks good to me. Interesting though when you read Swishers and Richards they advocated hackless flies. Whatever gets er done.

See my earlier post about what a trout sees from its window

[Silver Creek]

Byron,

You gave examples of slanted wing patterns but not of the patterns you feel do not have slanted wings. Can you give us a few examples of those.

[Byron haugh]

Byron,

You gave examples of slanted wing patterns but not of the patterns you feel do not have slanted wings. Can you give us a few examples of those.

How about any version of a comparadun?
How about any catskil style?
How about any Wulf fly?
I think we all grew up tying these flies and being exposed to them in literature to the extent that the upright wing became the accepted silhouette for a "well tied fly".
Of course, this all goes back to my assertion that the early tiers and fishers who were fishing relative virgin waters were spoiled in that the fish were less finicky due to little fishing pressure then.

[Silver Creek]

How about any version of a comparadun?
How about any catskil style?
How about any Wulf fly?
I think we all grew up tying these flies and being exposed to them in literature to the extent that the upright wing became the accepted silhouette for a "well tied fly".
Of course, this all goes back to my assertion that the early tiers and fishers who were fishing relative virgin waters were spoiled in that the fish were less finicky due to little fishing pressure then.

Catskill:


This fly was tied by Theodore Gordon. The wing is canted as is the tail. So tradition was for a tilt for Catskill flies at least.





http://midcurrent.com/flies/quill-gordon/




Royal Wulff:





If the above Catskill and Wulff flies are supported by the tail and the tips of the palmered hackle, the body of the fly is tilted, front end up and the "wing" will be canted back like a mayfly natural.


As Steve said in another post, Ian Moutter believes the Catskill tail cannot support the the back of the hook and the back of Catskill fly will sink sink, tilting the wing further. This would especially be true of the Theodore Gordon tied fly. It would be true even if the fly had a vertical wing.


That is why Lee Wulff used deer hair for the tail of his Wulff series. If the tail floats the Wulff, as I believe it does, the wing is still tilted back because the hook is not parallel to the water.


Comparadun:


I will admit that the comparadun will initially be vertical. The tilt will depend on how the wing is tied in. With the tie in point in front of the wing, the wing will tend to slant backward; do the opposite and the wing will tend to slant forward. Even when Charlie Craven ties the wing so that the natural slant is forward, he forces it a bit backward.





Another factor that is rarely considered with these wings is how the fly looks after it has been cast. When the fly is being cast, the air pushes the fly wing backward at a slant. So the tendency with all upright wings is to be forced into a backward slant during casting and they slowly but gradually do develop this tilt.

[Byron haugh]

Silver,
Sorry, but me thinks that is stretching it quite a bit.
I will challenge you on the Catskill method. I will match you 10-1 with photos of upright v. Slanted. In fact, let's produce tying instructions for Catskill to see what the drawings/instructions say.

Regarding the comparadun style, all who tie and fish them will tell you there is a nasty little tendency of forward creep in the "wing".

Just one example here. The cover of Eric Leiser's great book "The Dettes - A Catskill Legend"

Note the dry flies on the cover. I could also post a picture of their instructions on tying the wings upright if you like.



And, casting these flies does not make those upright wings cant either forward or backward once they alight on the water.


Now, what would be hard to refute is this. If a Catskill dry fly does indeed stay afloat on its "float line", there IS a bit of a canting of the fly upward at the front end of the fly....................

Here is a Theodore Gordon tied fly in Fly Fisherman Magazine:

http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/12/...eodore-gordon/

[Jayatwork]

Harrop's Hairwing dun is an example of an imitation with canted wing that works very well. I've often thought it was a better representation of the wing angle, at least from the anglers perspective. I can't say I've had fish reject a fly because of an upright wing though.

[Silver Creek]

I have always wondered why more patterns don't have the wings on a slant. Then I read the late JC's article here about the foot print insects leave on the water while resting on the surface. If I am not mistaken his conclusion was that the fish has already committed or turned from a fly based on the foot print even before the wing comes into their window of vision. I have since only added wings when I want a fly that looks good to me. Interesting though when you read Swishers and Richards they advocated hackless flies. Whatever gets er done.

As Byron says, the fish initially sees the impression of the fly in the mirror and not the window. If the body is resting on the meniscus, the fish sees it as well. As the fly approaches the fish either by floating down stream to the fish or by the trout rising toward the fly, the wing become visible at the window's edge and then the entire fly with body and wing merged comes into the window.





I believe the "conclusion was that the fish has already committed or turned from a fly based on the foot print even before the wing comes into their window of vision" is wrong. This is too simplistic and does not explain complex and compound rise forms.


Compound rise: The trout comes up to the fly but does not take it. He floats with the fly downstream before either taking the fly or refusing it. When he takes the fly or refuses it he is about vertical in the water. After taking the fly he can still simply swim forward back to his lie.


Complex rise: The trout comes up to the fly and floats downstream with it as in a compound rise and his body is turned vertical underneath the fly as he inspects it. But he continues to inspect the fly so that he is turned downstream before he decides whether to take the fly or not. If he takes the fly, he takes it facing downstream and after the take or refusal, the trout must turn back around before he can swim back to his lie.





Variations: I have seen a compound refusal followed by a complex rise and take. I've had a trout come up to look at my fly and float under it before refusing it. He started to swim back to his lie but then turned around and came back to look at my fly again before taking it while facing downstream.


These different rise types are an attempt to describe what is essentially a continuum of trout feeding activity, but they help in describing how selective and careful the trout are in waters that are heavily fished and clear. This type of rise activity is not unusual particularly in spring creeks. I have had situations where I was fishing a surface pattern and I would get compound after compound rise from the trout, some with takes but mostly refusals. Then I switched flies usually to an emerger or a different emerger pattern and the trout would change to a simple rise and take.


So saying that a fish has made up it's mind from the surface impression cannot explain the variety of feeding that refusals that occur. Nor does it explain late refusals when a fish turns away from the fly so late in the rise that beginners think that the fish has "missed" the fly.


Unless the water is rough and the fish sees several images or is confused by broken images, fish do not "miss" the fly. How does a fish know when to open it's mouth and take the fly? It uses the window as a "gunsight"





The fish keeps the image of the fly at or near the edge of the window. As the fish rises, the window contracts and centers on the fly. The fish learns where to place the fly relative to the window so that when it opens it's mouth, the fly will be there. Trout rarely miss and they don't miss unless the water is fast and rough. But they do refuse at the last moment.

[pittendrigh]

RE> "Silver Creek's good stuff above"

All of that is interesting indeed. But I may have a different take on refusals. We all know innocent fish will bite almost anything. I've seen that played out with everything from wilderness trout to bonefish in the bahamas (the closer to the lodge you are the harder those bonefish are to catch).

On Montana's various Paradise Valley spring creeks I've seen (many times) trout refusing natural mayflies. That tells you something. Those same fish will pile up into the eddy behind your legs as you wade the creek. So they're spooky and nervous from being caught too many times. But not smart enough to figure out the human waders have anything to do with it. Leaders and oversized or over-dressed flies do make them nervous. But so does the real thing at times.

There was a period (now long gone) when there was an over-grown willow bank stretch at the upper end of DePuys Spring Creek (below O'Hairs) where not many fishermen ever got to (there is now a path). In those days the fish in that stretch were wilder. They were much harder to approach, which meant they were nervous about any disturbance or foreign noises in the water. But far easier to catch, if you managed to get into the water without disturbing them. So my point is a bit ambiguous: wild fish will eat almost anything. Picky, well-pounded fish are indeed harder to catch. But it's not clear how much a better looking pattern really makes--because they have been observed refusing naturals. They're just nervous. About everything.

......still blabbering....
We are fly tiers. We try as best we can to imitate the real thing. And a well-tied Sparkle Dun will catch many more fish than a Royal Wulff during a PMD hatch. But so will a bunch of other pattern shapes too. I think size and color matter most of all. Plus a natural drift, a quiet cast and a sunken leader. Beyond that I'm not so sure where edges of effectiveness are. I'm still not convinced they ever see much more than a fuzzy dimple.

[Silver Creek]

I've also seen fish refuse naturals.

What it tells me is that the natural did not fit the search image closely enough for the fish to commit to eating it. I personally have not seen a fish get "nervous" over a natural, if by nervous you mean the fish stops feeding and or seeks cover. I suppose it can happen if a hopper splats next to a sipping fish, but for fish to fear a floating natural would be remarkable.

I think you are right that the fish often do not the dots between the wading fisher and the hook point in their lip. In some fisheries, the could rarely feed if they stopped feeding when fly fishers were in the water.

So between the latter tale of the fish spooking at your presence and being suckers for flies, and the the fish that swim at our legs with a high suspicion of flies, lies a continuum of trout behavior that has been molded by the fly fisher. I see no contradiction in either behavior.

I don't think either behavior contradicts the search image theory of how a fish is attracted to and then either commits to take or refuse the fly.

My earlier post had material that was taken from a post I made years ago to Flyfish@ explaining how we can use rise behavior determine how closely the fly and it's presentation matches the fish's search image for food or not food decision matrix. Previouosly I wrote:

"These different rise types are an attempt to describe what is essentially a continuum of trout feeding activity, but they help in describing how selective and careful the trout are in waters that are heavily fished and clear. This type of rise activity is not unusual particularly in spring creeks. I have had situations where I was fishing a surface pattern and I would get compound after compound rise from the trout, some with takes but mostly refusals. Then I switched flies usually to an emerger or a different emerger pattern and the trout would change to a simple rise and take."

Then I wrote in my Flyfish@ post:

"That tells me that the second pattern had a trigger characteristic that the
trout were looking for. By studying the differences between the two
patterns you can sometimes tell what that trigger is and use it the next
time when faced with a similar situation. As an example, a trigger might be
the addition of a zelon trailing shuck on an emerger, or perhaps a lower
profile mayfly pattern that rides low to the water like a real fly.
Whatever the reason, it pays to ask why does this one pattern work when the
other didn't? Otherwise, you will simply start over the next time
systematically going through the patterns in your fly boxes without having
an idea of what in those patterns triggers the trout's interest.

Another pattern of trout behavior which occurs often is that the trout will
perform a compound/complex rise and refusal. You'll cast to him again and
this time it is a simple rise and refusal. You keep casting and he rises no
more. Basically the trout after inspecting the fly during the initial rises
learned the surface signature or impression of that fly on the water. He
can now refuse your offering just by looking at the impression the fly body
and hackle make on his window. He has become selective against your
pattern and you had better change if you are planning to catch that trout."

Can a fish think or reason as we do? No they cannot. But that does not mean they cannot modify their behavior or adapt as in the first part of this post. Nor does it mean that they do not have a set way of determining what is food or not food that has been molded by evolution. What they do is not random, in other words, true random behavior is counter to survivability and wastes energy. Our job is to understand the triggers that the fish use to determine food from not food and to incorporate those triggers into our flies and presentation.