Crappy Hooks?

[Arnie]

With most hooks that I have used hundreds or thousands of, I have found some issue with at least a few that renders the hook unusable. So there's my definition of "crappy": not fit for it's intended purpose. A few that come to mind:
1. Soft hooks that result in long distance releases, or even bend in the vise. Tiemco 100
2. Brittle hooks that break in the bend, sometimes just from being flexed while tying a fly. Some of these same hooks broke just behind the point while crushing the barb. Mustad swimming nymph hook. Don't remember the model number.
3. Poorly formed eyes, or eyes not completely closed. Dai-Riki 300 and 320, Tiemco 2487, and probably others.
4. And the showstopper of all defects: A size 14 treble hook in a box of dry fly hooks. Mustad 94840. (At least it was the right size!)

I don't think any manufacturer's hooks are free of defects. I don't accept a statement of any manufacturer's hooks being superior any more than a comment that another manufacturer's hooks are consistently "crappy". And past experiences have not necessarily placed a particular brand on my personal black list. For example, I still use a lot of Dai-Riki's because I think they are a good value. A final thought, quality and price have a poor correlation.
Good fishing,

Arnie

[Allan]

Thanks for all the insightful responses. They just go to show that in general, in a wide range of manufacturers there's likely to be a 1, 2, or possibly even a 3% defective rate depending on the specific model hook. Personal question - I wonder if smaller hooks, say 12 thru 18 more prone to defects?
Anyway, years ago I tried an experiment. Dry fly hooks from 3 manufacturers all the same size. Attached all to 6# mono and then attached them all to a singular piece of mono so that all were equidistant from a 'pull point'. Embedded each hook point into a a piece of wood so that they would all be pulled down from the wood at the same angle. Slowly began to apply pressure and pull down. First one hook began to bend and then another. One was almost straight, the other was about 1/2 way and the third was beginning to bend. Final;ly the first did straighten, the 2nd was almost there and the 3rd was about 1/2 way. That was just a little test I gave to these hooks. It doesn't mean anything necessarily insofar as other models and has no bearing on malformed hook eyes. The test simply was for that particular type of hook in that particular size.
My bottom line is that if you want a particular shape of hook, in a particular weight, and in a particular length then you should be prepared to pay for each criteria you set.
Arnie's final comment above is about as accurate a statement as you can find: "A final thought, quality and price have a poor correlation."
Allan

[whatfly]

Arnie's final comment above is about as accurate a statement as you can find: "A final thought, quality and price have a poor correlation."

Says who exactly (other than Arnie and you)? You do understand what "correlation" means right? While price is not a perfect predictor of quality, it is a better predictor than a lot of factors, for example, the color of the package. Brand name by contrast is a pretty good predictor of quality. Again, not a perfect one, just a reasonably accurate one. It is up to the tier to decide what "reasonably accurate" means.

[Allan]

Thanks for the insight. Right now how many hook manufacturers, we're talking hooks used for tying trout flies, do you know? You believe there is a strong correlation between price and quality. You're entitled to your opinion.

[AlanB]

If there is more than a dozen worldwide I'll be amazed. Mustad is the biggest, (because they do the hooks for commercial long liners) There are possibly a couple in China and a couple more in Japan. If there is more than one or two in the US I'll be amazed. Not sure about the rest of Europe but the UK hook manufacturing is all but gone. Partridge is now in the far east, Singapore I think.

Many of the brands are not makes, and they are not going to tell you where they get their hooks from.

I don't know for sure but I don't think it is many. Now if you were asking about mono...

Cheers,
A.

[Allan]

Alan,

Here in the US, or at least based on the various US Fly Fishing/Tying catalogs I get, I am aware of perhaps 8 hook 'manufacturers' (brands): Mustad, Tiemco, Dai Riki, Diiachi, Gamatsu, Partridge, I think Eagle Claw makes a few fly tying hooks, and I recently saw hooks by Saber. Perhaps there are more brands available in your neck of the woods.

[whatfly]

If you are not familiar with how wide the field is, then perhaps your assessment of the determinants of quality is based on an imprecise sample? Other than the mainstream manufactures, there are numerous hook resellers (to call them manufacturers would be too much credit) in the US. We could also include the various European companies as well, and there's at least one in S.Africa. There are undoubtedly others. I have tried a lot of them, granted not all, and found that price is indeed one of the better predictors of quality (and variety too, but that's a different discussion). So while this conclusion is based on experience, it is based on a wide experience and not a parochial view that "if it is expensive it must be over-priced and not good quality." As they say on the 'net, YMMV.

[Allan]

Hi Whatfly,

Yes, I am talking about the mainstream manufacturers. Why would anyone who's a typical fly tyer consider, much less know, a non-mainstream manufacturer or hook maker? So, how about providing some example of what it is you're talking about? Specifically, how about citing which particular brand(s) of fly tying hooks you are basing your assessment on and putting them in order of 'quality' from the lowest to the highest as you'd rate them?
If anyone cares to assess the current brands in order of quality, feel free to make your opinion known. But please, let's try and keep the reviews based on first hand experience. Oh, and by-the-way, I don't recall saying, "if it is expensive it must be over-priced and not good quality." In another thread about the price of hooks I did say, "Of course if you're looking for a specific weight, bend, length and eye all on the same hook, then you'll be limited in choices and have to pay for those attributes."

[KeatonsDad2]

Getting a bad batch of hooks can turn a guy off in a hurry. One of the first batches of Dai Riki hooks I bought all would straighten out on me after a couple fish so I quit buying any Dai Riki hooks. I know guys that swear by them, so I don't know if I got a bad batch or what. But I didn't stick around to find out.

However even hook makers I like can make a model I don't. I like Daiichi hooks and tie almost exclusively with them, but I have not had good luck with their 1100 series wide gape dry fly hooks. It seems to me the wire is too fine and after catching just a couple of fish they have a tendency to start to straighten out.

One thing I can not stand in a hook and will not tolerate, is inconsistencies. There is one brand of cheap hooks out there that I won't mention, that I will never buy again. The hooks were strong, but so inconsistent it wasn't funny. You couldn't tell by just looking at them out of the package so much, but you sit down and tie a few dozen and you noticed one seemed to have just a tad longer shank than the other, or the bend was slightly different, or the angle of eye was not the same. It was frustrating to tie with them, and to me those hooks were the very definition of "Crappy Hooks."

[whatfly]

Well, if we are going to restrict the discussion to the mainstream manufacturers, I use different styles by pretty much all of them, including Eagle Claw. They all pretty much perform as expected, and I pick and choose the styles based on patterns and personal preference, with a heavy bias to buying from companies that are readily available and barbless. I missed where you wanted to restrict the discussion to just those styles, but you mentioned Saber, so I assumed you wanted to talk about all manufacturers/resellers. Most of the problems I've had have been with the 2nd tier (e.g. Targus, Saber, Togen, Allen, MFC, GCO, Fly Shop, etc.) companies, and those are the ones I now avoid. After some experimentation, I've decided it is just not worth my time nor money to fiddle with these non-mainstream hooks because of past problems. I do plan on experimenting more with the European companies, mostly because they have styles that are not available domestically, although I'm going to have to be really impressed, because they are not easy to come by in the US, and quite expensive as well.