Thinking of becoming a guide?

[blue gill]

Wow at least I know what I thought I was going to do before I started this post. Just kidding! The reason I even started this post is because all my life I ahve wondered about this or about that well at least through high school. See I have always been shy but here these last couple of years I have took my moms word s to heart. She always told me to ask questions because with out question how will you ever know if you are right or wrong. Well in this case I think I am right. As far as what JC said there is truth to that because I did know wether or not I wanted to guide but I needed some act of god or something to push me over he edge my 2nd most thought was tying salmon flies for a living mabey even writing a book but I still need a lot more life experiences for that and this is one of them. Thanks for everyones thoughts opinions facts and am still looking forward to reading more of them.

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Alex

[DVC]

Hello Alex,
Kudos to you for having the balls to take a chance and being smart enough to ask ohters for advise and opinions.
You are 25, I am 50. That doesn't mean that us older guys are smarter than you, just more experienced.
I have been blessed to have the opportunity to work in many fields. From a traveling musician in my younger years to being a pro photographer and having my own studio.
Life is to be lived and there are many, many experiences to be had. If you dream of being a fishing quide, then be one! If it doesn't work out, you can always do something else.
You will never know until you try.
But, do this, strive to make smart decisions on each question or issue that you come across. If you really need that new rod, then get it. If you really need that Million Dollar Insurance Policy, then get it.
As some here have said, honesty and integrity are paramont. This is also the key to a good life. Combine that with making smart decisions, no matter what your vocation, and everything will turn out allright. You will be a happy man and your friends and family will love you. In in the end that is all that matters.
Good luck in your endeavors, where ever they may lead.

Doyle C.

[SilverMallard]

Yeah, well, choosing a career wisely is also part of "smart decisions." Do you have any idea how many licensed guides operate on the White River? I'd want to know stuff like that first. I'd want to know what their average take-home pay is. I'd want to know what the take-home pay of the top 10% of them is. I'd be looking at the investment required vs. the possible financial gains.

You're not just talking about having a "fun job" here. You're also talking about earning a living, eventually providing for a family, and someday retiring. Why do you work? Answer that question first. If you work to earn money, then that should be your first priority. If you work just to have something to do because you're independently wealthy or stand to inherit a fortune, then doing something you enjoy becomes paramount.

Here's a hint: "Money can't buy happiness" is an old saying with a whole bunch of caveats. Money ALONE can't buy happiness, but you will find it VERY hard to be happy if you don't have enough of it to keep your needs met comfortably. And, if you ever plan to marry, you will find this to be even more true for most women. And you will find that it is almost impossible to be happy when you cannot provide for your children. So the money factor in happiness increases exponentially as you mature.

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My New Year's resolution is to have more fun...even if YOU don't.

[billknepp]

I am not a guide..................

I've read this whole thread,And I believe you've about as good advise as you'll ever hear...

As a Flyfisherman, who loves the fishing part most of all! I know I could not do the guide part and do it WELL...Which is what it all boils down to...

I do think you should give it a shot,If you can handle all thats been stated above ,Money,Equipment and People wise...Whats to stop you???...

Ranger1,
Sounds as though you have what it takes,and are well on your way to becoming a guide...Hope all works out for you as well.Your attitude seems firmly centered where it needs be.

Something that RonMt touched on that posed a Question in my mind was the sheer numbers of guides in a small and or limited area....This you may want to take a good look at before you jump in with both feet...To many cheifs and to little indians is not a good thing , In most things...And I'd think especailly in a feild where so much is placed upon reputation.....Is there going to be enough client base out there for all that are already guideing ???..Let alone a green newbie??? Just some thoughts to ponder.

[edit] I see that SilverMallard had thoughts along the same lines as I....really is a viable thing to consider.....
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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

Everyone wants to excel in this sport but at the same time we let traditionalists place restrictions on our tactics, methods, and ideas. I always assumed that fly fishing was a sport that allowed imagination, creation, adaptation, investigation, dedication, education, revelation? : Fox Statler, On Spinners (Not the dainty Dry Fly kind) "Spinner'd Minner Fly"

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill




[This message has been edited by billknepp (edited 22 January 2006).]

[RonMT]

I just want you to know that I did not tell you not to try guiding. I just told you what not to do as far as trying to get that job regulated more by your state. Here the Hunting Outfitters were they ones that started all of the crap. They were the one's that voted to make insurance mandatory. They did it because they were trying to get rid of the small outfitters to get there business. The same 5 people switched seats on the board for a number of years and they ended up hurting the guiding industry here more than you can imagine. The first year we had to have insurance my bill went from $129.00 to cover everything from fishing to hunting to covering just fishing and it cost me over $900.00 and I had to get it out of Canada. So you can see what can happen when you wish for more govenment in your life. Now it cost a hunting outfitter with horses about 10 thousand a year for insurance. I get a kick out of that because the same people that voted to have insurance mandatory in the first place are now screaming about how much it costs them. I got to laugh at one of the about a week ago. Made him real mad when I told him he got what he asked for. LOL.

If you want to try guiding do so. But do not limit yourself to one place or one type of guiding. Heck like I said I would get a Captian's license guide the lakes there and the salt maybe in Texas in the Arkansas off season. You have to cover all the bases now days to make a living in todays world. By the way learning to guide in the bay system is not all that hard. Just a little different. It is worth the money to get a Captians license if you are going to guide at least in my book it is. Good Luck to you. Ron

[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 22 January 2006).]

[Ray]

First of all if you want to become a guide you must think of it as a business. That being said you'll need money for a start-up. Truck, boat(fully stocked), Trailer, Rods, Reels and flies. Next you'll need insurance, truck, boat, trailer,health for yourself ($5000 per year) and at least a Million of liability insurance(about$1000 per year). Next you need an advertising budget to attract customers, you can also use a flyshop as a booking agent and pay them a fee. Make sure you have all your permits and licences. As for guide school, ABSOLUTLY, get all the professional training you can, in casting, boating, and emergency medical. Now your ready to get a lawyer, I would go with a LLC, this will protect your personal assets should something go wrong, you lawyer will advise you on your options. Get a business proposal together listing all expected start-up costs, especially if you need to borrow the monies(SBA is your best choice). Remember that all of your expences are tax deductable, keep good records, and use a good accountant. This just touches the surface, but I hope it helps. Good luck!

[Night Angler]

As most of know I would like to get into the guide business myself.. so I have nothing negitive to say..

as for an off season in Missouri or Arkansas there isnt one.. I know a quite a few guides in these areas and they are alway full..

Blue Gill the only tip I can really give you... is to know where the fish are when no fish is to be found..

Leonard

[SilverMallard]

Leonard,

That's just not true. The SUCCESSFUL, high profile guides are always busy. The state of AR issues THOUSANDS of guide licenses every year. The actual # is staggering. Only a handful of those guys are making a living, and not many more are even breaking even on their "hobby." (which is the #1 reason most White River guides do it...they're not "pros." They're just trying to keep momma from complaining about how much time and money they spend on fishing) Most of the pros in these parts are retired from some other job or they're moonlighting. A few even inherited money to live on.

Look at the Parker's of River Run Outfitters...

Retired professionals from KC come to Branson and start guiding and open a fly shop. It's Orvis endorsed, which costs them several thousand dollars a year. But it brings them customers...a LOT of customers. They have expensive drift boats, top notch gear, a great shop near the water, and drive Eddie Bauer Expeditions and Mercury Mountaineers...brand new every couple of years. Stop by on any weekday during the Winter and they're likely to both be there...unless Stan is just out fishing for fun or running errands. They're making a living, but how much do you suppose they have invested in all that? I assure you it is more than a quarter of a million dollars, not including shop inventory. Now, on weekends and from May through October they run several guides per day. Now let's talk about their guides...

I know them all pretty well. They're all retired from other jobs or only work weekends because of another job. It's not a "career!" To work for Stan and Carolyn, you need your own driftboat...$7000-10000. Do you know how many guide trips you'd have to make to pay for one of those? Do the math. It's not a "job."

That's just one example. There are many, many more similar ones among the folks we both know. And the folks we know are the high profile guides and outfitters.

Want to know how a Gaston's guide makes out? Talk to Jimmy Traynor. He was one of their top guides for years. Just went solo this year. Know why? I do.

The White River is a TOUGH market to break into and it takes money and/or a ton of talent and patience...during which time you still have to eat. If we went around to all the shops and websites and collected contact info on every Ozarks fishing guide we could find, and then we ordered the list of guide licenses sold by the state of AR (MO has no guide license) last year, you would see that we had only found about 10% of the folks holding guide licenses. That means 90% aren't even pretending to make a living at it. And if you don't spend money on marketing or get hired on by a Gaston's, Lilley's, or River Run, you aren't going to stay busy. And if you don't stay busy at least 8 mos/year, you're not even breaking even.

It's not a job, and it certainly isn't a career. So why in heck would anyone advise a young man just starting out in life to try it as a career? That's like telling him to become a door to door milkman!

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My New Year's resolution is to have more fun...even if YOU don't.



[This message has been edited by SilverMallard (edited 23 January 2006).]

[Night Angler]

SilverMallard..

Yes I know what you are saying...

But I never once told him to quit any job he has and drop everything and jump straight into it...

I have been planning my for almost 3 years..

What I need.. who I need to talk to... where would be some of the best places to learn or start.. and I have even looked into the guiding schools...

Yes I know its hard.. and yes that last post didnt come out as I meant to say..
I know Stan doesnt have a trip everyday... If so I could see him getting burned out very very quickly.. Yes I know that most guides (well a few).. that will go out all day and cant bring in a single fish.. yes that sucks.. but it happens (very little).

[Fullwells]

Alex, don't let all the horror stories and naysayers talk you out of pursuing your passion. As somone whose guided flyfishing, big game hunting, and waterfowling, let me tell you this; the insurance isn't that bad if you're smart about it and you shop around. Being smart about it means having a risk management plan, having an airtight contract\waiver, getting first aid and cpr training (in my case I was able to get a substantially better rate by becoming a state certified emt), and doing everything by the book.
Another great way to sidestep alot of this is to lease private property. In CO an outfitter is required th have a 2-1-1 liability policy, and day use permits to guide on most public water. On private water, you negotiate as part of the lease the ammt of ins required by the landowner. As well you have the added advantage of knowing that your "meat hole" won't be crowded with people or fished out when you get there.