Knots coming undone

[hap]

Over the past 4 decades plus of tying a lot of different finisher tools and techniques have crossed my bench. All work fine. I have settled on the Mattereli style for small flies. Big flies I whip finish by hand.

Recently though, I finally got my hands on a Nor-Vise brand whip finisher and it is the nicest tool for the job, by a long distance! The tip of the tool is very slender for much farther than the Mattereli. It is slick and comes off the thread more easily. And there is nothing wrong with the Mattereli, but there are three different finishers of the same style on the table right now and the India-made Sunrise is hugely inferior to the Mattereli... and the Nor-Vise is clearly a lot finer tool than the M...

My computer is having photo downloading issues or I would slap up a picture that would make it all very clear immediately. Still might...
art

[sagefisher]

Eastcoastfly,

As you can see, the whip finish is the best way to go. Being the old dinosaur that I am, it wasn't until this year that I started using the whip finishing tool. Up to then I always did it the way I was first taught back when I was 14 years old, three half hitches and head cement. I use fingernail polish for my head cement on freshwater flies (Hard As Nails is good or any clear polish). On my saltwater flies I use an actual head cement, Hard as Hull.

So, learn the whip finish. But when you do use half hitches you can either cement the whole head, and most likely get cement in the eye of the hook, or you can do a little trick that was taught to me a long time ago.

As you are tying your half hitch, use an old bodkin or the brush in the polish and apply a little, not a lot, but a little polish directly onto the thread just before the thread reaches the hook, say the last half inch. If the polish beads up, you have too much and gently wipe the beads off. The polish will soak into the thread and if you do that on each of the two or three half hitches, then they won't unravel.

That polish applied directly to the thread is also great when you are going to tie off the thread directly behind a bead or cone head.

Glad to see you are getting into fly tying, enjoy it.

Larry ---sagefisher---

[Steven]

The whip finish is the way to go. I use my fingers for the most part, sometimes a Materelli, and usually a Thompson for parachutes. Each has its appropriate time and place in my opinion.

I think the very best video explaining the hand whip finish is on Eric Austin's traditionalflies.com.

Once there, click on techniques, then on "Drop The Tool," and then go to the bottom and click on the hand whip finish video. It will take a few minutes to load, but it's worth the wait.

Best of luck,

Steven

[Ron Eagle Elk]

I think John Scott may be onto something about the tension of your wraps when tying. I tie with the thread just under the breaking strength, the final knots should be the same. Good tight knots, preferably a whip finish, and a fly should last a long time. That is unless the fish mangle it so badly it's unrecognizable, or it gets snagged high in a tree or deep in the water.

[Gringo]

I fing a whip finish with a tool very quick and easy now after many, many practices. It is easier too to control the thread tension and even precise placement with a whip finish. Dab of glue to make sure and this also makes a nice even finish to the head. Even clear nail varnish will do the trick for you.

Half hitch finishes are a little bulky in my view and not terribly secure, as you have found. I still will do a half hitch on some flies like a parachute where it is harder to do a nice even wrap with a tool.

Also, as a beginner you are probably using 6/0 thread which is fairly bulky. If you can downsize to a thinner thread, say 8/0, you will be able to get more wraps without the bulk. It is not too much harder to use and easy to get used to.

Basically just perservere; hang in there, and welcome to FAOL. We'' always help if we can.

[Normand]

27 years of finishing a fly with 3 half hitches and a little head cement without having come unraveled.

who needs a whip finish and what fly tying commandment states its the ONLY way to finish a fly???

[eastcoastfly]

Thank you all for your advice. I'll refer back to this thread as I progress. Here's what I've tried since.

1. Tension- I think this was part of the problem with my earlier flies, the later ones still haven't unraveled.

2. Knots- I've worked on keeping the thread tense as I tie two or three half hitches to finish the fly. I also picked up a whip finisher over the weekend and began practicing.

3. Glue- So far I've borrowed a bottle of clear nail polish from my fiance' and applied it to a few of my earlier EZ nymphs (FAOL Beginner tying series). I'll see how that works and maybe later pick up some fly tying glue.

4. Materials- I picked up some more materials to make some EZ Nymphs and Wooly Buggers (just olive and black chenile and marabou, unsure of what hackle I needed) so we'll see how they turn out. BTW materials for two flies in two sizes each was surprisingly expensive. I know it works out later, but the initial start up cost is not cheap.

Take care and thanks again

[Gringo]

Iv'e said this before and got into trouble, but tying your own flies is not a cheap alternative! Over here the market is flooded with cheap flies from Africa and India, and extremely well tied. Mostly they sell at about $1.50AU which might be say $1.25US. They are tied better than I could do. I got some Klinkammers the other day and they are beautifully woven with segmented silk abdos, just lovely little critters, at a dollar and a half each. In New Zealand last I bought a selection of great little nymphs and dries which were $10NZ per dozen, that is maybe $8US. These too are really neat little flies, beadhead pheasants and similar.

Tie your own for fun and because you love it. Its great to catch a fish on a fly you made yourself from fur and feather, but you will spend hundreds or thousands on gear and materials! It is a sickness that you will love every minute of!

Now a couple of hints if I may be so bold: get the fly head varnish as soon as you can because nail polish goes a bit "gunky" and is hard to apply neatly with the brush. It is OK, but I'm sure that as a beginner you will find a tiny dab of cement on the end of a needle much easier to manage. It dries to a nicer finish too. Also until you get used to doing the whole glue thing, thread your completed flies straight onto a length of wire - this keeps them together and will guarantee you that the eye is not blocked with either glue or a feather stem. It is a pain in the butt discovering this in the middle of a stream.

[Gigmaster]

The correct way to finish a fly is with a whip-finish and head cement. Anything else is incorrect. When you replace a part on your car, don't you replace ALL the bolts and tighten them correctly? Tying a fly is no different.

There is one exception: When tying some of the more exotic patterns that finish in the middle, or rear of the fly, making it difficult, if not impossible to whip-finish. In this case, you would use a Zap-A-Gap knot. Simply coat the last 3 or 4 inches of line with Zap-A-Gap and wrap. Let it dry completly, then trim the thread, and finish with head cement over the wraps.

[bugman]

i whip finnish the head by hand.. cant use a whip finnisher tool to save my life ! follow that with 3 halfhitches.. after that i use sallys hard as nails from the fingernail polish area at wallmart, cheaper than head cement.. i use just a needlepoint of it on the finnished fly to hold the knots from comming loose.. if ya use the hard as nails, dont use the brush in it to put the stuf on the head of your fly.. allways use a needle or bodkin..