today's educated trout and new fly patterns?

[RonMT]

Nope I can't do that but I can tell you that I have seen fish that got so use to flies that they would no longer even look at them unless it was changed in someway.

I was guiding a client on Armstrong Spring Creek some years back, the year after the white indicators first came out. The fish there got real spooy with them. I watched several fish move out of the way as it would come toward them then move back to there lie after it had went by. I got to thinking about this and got an idea. (I think I have told this before?) I went to my truck and got a black magic marker from the glove box. I then painted the indicator black instead of the white. After doing so my client caught severl fish and I did not see one move because of the indicator? Now I do not know about you but I get the feeling that trout do learn from being fished over hard. And that color can be important.
I also believe that changing colors and small things in a pattern can make all the difference in the world.

But that is just my opinion. Ron

PS: I am not a fan of exact patterns. I have found that the fish aren't either. I think suggestion is much better as long as the shape, size and color are correct.

[Hans Weilenmann]

Ron,

Your white indicator story fits in nicely with the positve and negative triggers framework.

The very visible, and very much out of "used to seeing these things" world view of the trout. Let's be careful!

Color it darker and it becomes more familiar flotsam, drifting overhead on a contineous basis. No negative trigger anymore.

Will this work for you?

Cheers,
Hans W


------------------
=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier

[Thin Air]

tyeflies
'You can never step into the same water twice.'
--Pretty sure that's a quote from the great Canadian fly fisherman Rodrick Haig Brown

------------------
Is not the sky a father and the earth a mother, and are not all living things with feet or wings or roots their children? Give me the strength to walk the soft earth, a relative to all that is!

-----Black Elk, Lakota Sioux Holy Man 1863-1950
from: "Black Elk Speaks", pub 1932

[RonMT]

Han's what about all the white foam on the water? You know in the faster water areas or coming off of rocks. Lots of white in a stream.
I also think that color has more to do with things than most people think about. They think shape and size and so forth. But what about the light that comes through the color on the fly and how it looks to a fish. Lot more to this question than meets the eye.
But I am going to stick by what I have said. It has paid off with a lot more fish for my clients and myself over the years and that I think is a good reason for me to do so. Ron

[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 05 September 2005).]

[Jgoding]

Lots of good theories here but like a few people have said, it is almost impossible to explain. It is all about triggers, both negative and positive. Just like why would a trout take power bait?? Bright neon pink ball of goo??? Because somehow it's got enough positive triggers in it to produce a strike. I'm sure trout can associate certain things with negative triggers by instinct and being caught. I think it will also vary from individual to individual just like with all animals so it can never really be truly explained to an exact science.

Jeff

Okay, now to ask two questions.
The first is a follow-up:
If trout become educated, by the way is that through being caught and released or just seeing a lot of different flies, how come they will take something with a curved metal piece sticking out beyond and under the imitation?

This second is about presentation:
Would you agree that 'presentation' is directly and inversely proportionate to both the speed and the amount of broken water? In other words, faster broken water requires less of a presentation than gently flowing smoother water.

Allan

[hurly]

I think this post proves one thing. And that is that no one knows for sure what in our flys triggers a fish to strike or not. I personnaly hope no one figures it out either.
I used to raise and race homing pigeons. One of the big areas of investigation is how do they find thier way home over hundreds of miles faster than you can drive it? If they ever find out for sure then all the fun/mystery would go out of it. Same for fly-fishing. If we ever find out for sure what makes a trout strike a fly, guess I'll have to quit.
Hurly

------------------
A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds

[Rainbowfran]

I wonder in the studies of 'Do fish see color' ..if there have been studies to show if they only see value .i.e the b/w -ness of a color or actual color ?

If one takes a black and white photograph of colors in various tints/shades, you will only see them in black white. If a fish is presented with a color match to the hatch fly and it takes it, and you present another fly of equal value but different color to the fish might it also be taken for an identical fly to the earlier one?"
Just color wheels turning
fran


[This message has been edited by Rainbowfran (edited 06 September 2005).]

[adso4]

tyeflies,

You can find an, if not the, answer to your first question in Gary LaFontaine's <The Dry Fly - New Angles>. Gary explains that trout is looking for the positive, that is, triggering features, in your fly and that if your fly has enough primary (and secondary) triggers, trout will not care about the negative, that is, hook that is sticking out. I know that some fly fishers fish gold-plated, bare TMC 2487 and catch lots of fish because flash of gold, bare hook can be sufficient enough to induce trout to strike under certain conditions.

Rainbowfran,

You may want to put the filtering effects of water colors (and/or turbidity) and the depth of water you fish in into your equation. Red and blue have the same value in terms of black and white spectrum, but in green water, blue will look brighter than red as blue penetrates water deeper than red and green water as a color filter will make red look duller.



[This message has been edited by adso4 (edited 06 September 2005).]

[RonMT]

I am talking about hard fished streams and Spring Creeks. Not just any stream or river. That was the question I believe. "DO FISH GET WISE TO OR FLIES" on hard fished waters. Yes they do. I have fished back country lakes and caught trout on a bear gold hook as the above poster has discribed. I have also sat on the bank of a high back country stream and tossed bits of tissue rolled up in my fingers and watched trout take them. I have caught fish that were full of small yellow grass or flower seeds. Trout eat a lot of things and may take anything at one time or another. But there are streams and fish that have seen just about every fly that has been tied and had great anglers fishing those flies. They get smart to them and will not take them. New patterns may work or you may have to fiddle with them to get them to work.

Anyone that does not believe what I am saying let me know next time you are in my neck of the woods and I will be gald to take you out and sit on the bank and watch you get skunked. I have seen it happen to many of the best writers and anglers that I know of. They don't write about it but they sure remember it.

Heck I read all the time about guy's that get skunked on the Letort in PA. Why? Could it be that they are not good enough or have the right flies or for that matter the right color of flies and the right presatition. It all has to go together for a person to catch fish. That is why 10 percentr of the fishermen catch 90 percent of the fish.

I have taken 5 or 6 well known writers and a few TV fishing show people on guided trips over the years. Believe me just because people can write well or because they have a TV program does not mean they can fish well. That is a fact.

I fished tonight and did well. I also fished the other evening and didn't do so well. The other evening I did fine until a hatch started just about 30 minutes before dark. There were caddis on the water so I tried those and then some caddis emergers. I had a few splashes at them but no takes. I got to thinking about it and when I went back this evening I hit the nail on the head. They were taking a beatis that was a size #20. They would take nothing else that I threw at them. I changed flies a few times just to check.
The rancher that own's the land I was fishing on came down and was watching me and said that he had never seen anyone take fish that fast. I had 6 fish in 6 casts. Luck. He also asked me how I could see my fly as I was casting right into the glare of the setting sun. I told him I couldn't see it but I knew about were it should be and if a fish came up I would set the hook. Amazing how that works LOL.

I am one of those guy's that likes hard fishing. Going to a stream that you can catch fish at will is not my cup of tea. Or fishing over stocked, pellet fed fish is also not my style. If there isn't a challenge to the fishing I do then I would just as soon stay home and tie orders.

I believe that if a person takes the challenge to fish over tough fish he or she will learn a lot more than if they fish for what I call "Candy" fish. (Like Kids in a Candy Store. Can't keep there mouth shut)

That is the reason that I believe that fish "DO" learn what different flies look like and will turn them down because they have either been caught with them, stung by them or that fly has been cast many times over those fish by not so good of an angler.

Believe me I know how big a trouts brain is. But they can learn and they do. Nick a big trout with a streamer sometime and try and take it on that same fly again. Bet you can't do it within a week or two. They do learn form experance. So yes trout get use to flies and will not take them. I'am done. Ron



[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 06 September 2005).]