Keeping it simple for once.

[AlanB]

Some tied for my fly box, Simple spiders. As these for the loch they are over hackled. If these were for the river, they would have about 1/3rd of the hackle these have. For some reason, on the lochs, the fish want something with more hackle.
B C Damsel_0003.jpg
Hook: Wet fly 10 - 14. (mine are on 12s)
Thread: Black UTC 170. (Or you can match the body colour if you like)
Rib: Fine Gold Oval. (No need to counter wrap as the rib is wound on a different pitch to the body)
Body: Wound herl. (I've used colour extracted and dyed pheasant tail but any herl long enough to wind would do)
Hackle: Grey feather from the shoulder of a brown partridge.

These would be fished as the point fly in a team of three.

Cheers,
A.

[Chuck441]

They are quite lovely fish foolers, Alan. You'll do well with them. I've noticed that traditional loch flies (bumbles, e.g.) are pretty heavily hacked. Any thoughts?

Chuck

[AlanB]

Yes many are, but they are top dropper flies. Designed to sit in and around the surface. Some of my top dropper flies are extremely over hackled. A typical Soldier palmer will have 6 turns on the body and a couple at the head. Mine often have 20 turns on the body. Here are some comparisons. First a traditional Blue Zulu,
Blue Zulu Spring.jpg
Then one as I tie them as a wake fly.
Blue Zulu - Copy.jpg
The same comparison with the Soldier Palmer. Traditional first.
Cardinal Spring.jpgCardinal.jpg
The traditionals still have a place in my box but tend to be used beginning and end of the season.
There are times when these will bring the fish to your flies, but will not catch. The fish will take the point or middle fly. But if you take the top fly off you will not catch at all. You want a fly that moves a lot of water when pulled. Here is an example with a Clan Chief.
Laiogh_0007.jpg
This action sends out a signal to the fish. The reaction is often violent!.

That is why there are so many bushy flies used in traditional loch style fishing.

Cheers,
A.

[Ed_D]

Alan, the flies you showed in your first post would work well in some of our rivers, although Warren would probably tie them with reversed hackles.
I have had good luck with traditionally-hackled Invictas on our streams here, especially as top droppers. And as it turns out, keeping the line fairly taunt really does increase the number of fish hooked.

Regards,
Ed

[AlanB]

The Invicta is a great fly. My preference is for the Silver Invicta, though the original with amber seal's fur is still excellent. You will not find a fly box without them in this part of the world. It is one of my go to middle dropper flies.
Silver Invicta_0002.jpg
Cheers,
A.

[JeffHamm]

I've done quite well with a lot of spiders. I've tied up, with substitutes where necessary, flies from Pritt's collection and do quite well with them. Pritt's #1, the Water Cricket, is still one of my more productive flies (it's in the FOTW archives). Baillie's Black Spider, from Stewart's "The Complete Angler" is another good one (REE put that in the archives years ago as well). I do well with the Invicta (yellow bodied one), and soldier palmer has worked for me as well. I used to fish a Bibio a lot, but for some reason haven't tied one on for some time though it always did well? Greenwell's Glory is a stand by too. Some North American older patterns that I still fish and do well with are parmachenee belles, royal coachman (and the UK original coachman and leadwing coachman are both excellent), and micky fins. I tie some Atlanitc Salmon patterns on size 10s 2x hooks and they have produced well on NZ trout (thinking cosseboom and blue charms mostly).

There are a lot of really good patterns that have stood the test of time. And lots of different ways to fish them.

- Jeff

[AlanB]

A great list of flies there Jeff. The approach I often take with lots of these, is to ask myself what makes them so good? If you can identify the factor that makes them work then you can, with modern materials, sometimes, cram more of it into the fly. That often makes them more suited to a particular way of fishing them, but it is often worth it.

A while back I did an SbS on the Bailey (Stewart) Black spider myself.



Cheers,
A.

[JeffHamm]

Nice SBS! That's such a nice, simple, and effective pattern. I've found starling to be one of the best hackles for small spiders, and it was quite under-rated for a long time. I know REE got on to it, and a lot of people here have refound it's utility, but it's still not common (at least not here in NZ). I've also tried Pritt's "Little Black", and while that sounds to me like it should do really well, I find it a real pain to tie in and rib with the magpie herl and I'm never sure I've got the right look in the end. I must have another go at it though.

- Jeff

[Ed_D]

The Invicta is a great fly. My preference is for the Silver Invicta, though the original with amber seal's fur is still excellent. You will not find a fly box without them in this part of the world. It is one of my go to middle dropper flies.
Attachment 12925
Cheers,
A.

Alan,
Those are beautiful flies. There is a Welsh tyer, Andrew Davies, who has a video on YouTube where he ties a "Silver Invictor" (sic) without the palmered hackle here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n2HqLGIURM
He does say that you can use palmered hackle if you with. In my ignorance I thought the palmered hackle was pretty much required for it to be an Invicta, but I am the merest novice in this arena.

Locally I have done well with Invictas tied with olive or yellow floss, brown or furnace palmered hackle, and mallard wings. I'm thinking seriously about tying some with grizzly hackle, and maybe some with orange floss bodies for brookies.


Warm regards from an increasingly warm Tennessee,
Ed

[AlanB]

Hi Ed,
I've seen the Invicta tied sans palmered hackle, usually on doubles tied for sea trout, though it isn't common. Another fly often given this treatment is the Dunkeld. I think for my trout fishing it is an essential component. I try to make my flies "noisy" in a hydrodynamic sense, so will use as good a quality hackle as I can. In other flies I take this even further, using a slightly undersized dry fly quality hackle for the palmered hackle and a covert feather at the head.

There is a wingless fly I have found to be very good which was based on the Invicta. Sorry I don't have a picture just now. its been christened the Interloper.

Hook: Size 8 to 12 wet fly.
Tag: Gold oval.
Tail: GP Topping.
Rib: Gold oval.
Body: In two halves, Rear. flat gold Front. Amber seal's fur (or sub) palmered with red game cock hackle.
Hackles: Blue cock (2 turns) and a dyed brown covert feather from a hen pheasant (also 2 turns).

Strangely I find the Silver Invicta a more productive fly, but Mike, who I fish with, prefers the original. If you want to tie the Invicta to the original pattern I believe Steve Cooper, Cookshill Fly Tying, has the low down on the legal restrictions on seal's fur and is now exporting it to the States.

There is a tale to relate about a couple of friends who visited Yellowstone some years ago. In West the news was that Hebjen Lake wasn't fishing well. "Go to the inlets and look for gulpers", was the advice. They had a boat for half a day, so in the morning they fished "loch style", and took over 50 fish to the boat. Back in West they were accosted by a couple of shop owners who wanted them to take them out and show them how they did it.

Its a simple technique, boat side on to the wind and let it drift, (slow it with a drogue if drifting too quickly). Cast downwind short to medium casts with a team of 3 flies. Work the flies back to the boat. As the flies approach the boat lift the rod so the top fly works in the surface. You will get rises to the top fly so close to the boat you will get splashed. If the rod is high when the fish takes set the hook by making a roll cast. A traditional clinker built row boat is the best kind for this technique, and you want a long rod of 10 or 11 feet.

Quite often you will only catch fish on the point and middle flies. If you change the top fly that hasn't caught you will stop catching. The fish are being attracted to the top fly but taking one of the others. That's how a team works. Greater than the sum of its parts.

Cheers,
A.