sinking lines?

[anglerdave]

If I missed this, I apologize, but how deep are you wanting to fish? For instance I wet wade local rivers in the summer and use nothing but a floating line. Clousers are weighted and get down to the bottom for me. When streamer fishing I normally present them somewhere from just under the surface to close to the bottom. If I want to go deeper I'll just throw a mend up stream. When I feel I need to go deeper I will use a sink tip. If I was fishing lakes and or ponds more I would consider a density compensated full sinking line.

As far as a sinking line for a 4wt is concerned, I only use sinking or sink tip lines on heavier rods such as a 6wt on up. Unless you are throwing very small Clousers I would think you might have some problems throwing them on a 4wt.

Dave

[namekagon]

Thanks for the help guys. Any recommendations on a good sinking line for a 4wt rod, that's not more than 50$?

Sinking or sinking tip?
I really like Teeny sinking tips avail here for 62 bucks but free shipping in U.S. http://www.flyfishusa.com/lines/teeny-lines.html#T-130 T-130 is rated for 4-6 wt with a sink rate of 4 ips

An S.A. full sink is avail at JS, a FAOL sponsor, for $42 http://www.jsflyfishing.com/cgi-bin/...fessional-Full- rated for a 5 wt.
Assuming your rod has a fast or moderate action, it should work fine on a 4 wt. I'd go with type IV with a sink rate of 3.5-5.0 ips.

[bmaher287]

Ya I wanna go with the full sinking line. Thanks for the link.

[Fly Goddess]

Good deal on line right there, but I would go with a Type II or III and I agree a 5 would be okay. The problem with a fast sink is you can only strip faster if they are in a semi shallow zone. With a slower sink, you can count down. Just my take. I think II is more versatile.

[bmaher287]

Do you have to take the fly you are using into account when looking at the sink rate? For example if I was using a weighted fly would I add an inch or so per second?

[Fly Goddess]

I would imagine it would. But the beauty of a weighted line is you don't have to. Length of leader will come into play as well. But, if you are using a heavy weighted fly, you want it to hit the bottom quicker, just like with a floating line. But you can also fish a non weighted fly and get into the fish zone at 5' to 25' for example, and ir will stay in that zone longer.

[tailingloop]

Do you have to take the fly you are using into account when looking at the sink rate? For example if I was using a weighted fly would I add an inch or so per second?

There are a lot of factors involved in the final sink rate you actually achieve when fishing and the fly can be a factor.

Weighted flies may sink faster than the fly line. Bulky unweighted flies may sink slower than the fly line, resulting in a curve in the line between your rod tip and the fly. This curve represents slack that will make strike detection more difficult. Even weighted flies may not sink as fast as you might think. Some patterns have materials that will trap air bubbles that cause a fly to sink more slowly or have neutral buoyancy.

A couple of years ago another angler and I were fishing for bass with heavily weighted 4/0 Blanton's Whistlers on sinking lines. One angler was catching fish and the other wasnt getting bit, or so it seemed. The angler with the faster sinking line wasn't getting bit. The water was very clear. The sun got high enough that we could see the lines and the flies even 20ft down. As it turned out the fly attached to the faster sinking line was actually 6 or 7 feet higher than the lowest part of sinking line. The fly has actually impeding the sink of the tip of the fly line creating a big belly. We could see fish hit the fly but the strike was never felt by the angler.

A great way to see how sinking lines and flies work together is to play around with them in a swimming pool. If you do not have a pool, maybe you know someone who does.

Some other thoughts:

Lines such as the Teeny T or TS series, Scientific Anglers Streamer Express, Cortland Quick Descent, Rio Outbound, Airflo Depthfinder and others are generically referred to "integrated lines" or "integrated shooting tapers". These lines typically have a 24 to 30 foot fast sinking section with a thin running (or shooting) line behind them. This running (or shooting) line is either of a floating or intermediate sinking (type I) type. These lines are exceptional for distance casting but can be used close in to. They may be the easiest sinking lines to cast. They are also quite expensive. Unlike traditional shooting head systems with interchangeable shooting heads you cannot change head density, but you do not have to deal with rigging or loops in your line system. I think the least costly on the market to day are the Rio Avid 24ft sink tip line and the Scientific Anglers Wet Tip Express. Typically these lines are rated by the weight in grains of the head instead of the more familiar line weight(Rio Outbound and Outbound Short are exceptions). If you follow the line makers recommendations for matching a line to a rod you will usually get a good match. Many anglers assume that such lines will sink faster the heavier the head. While this is a generalization, it is not always true. The weight in grains of the head is a measurement of mass, not density. Density determines sink rate. The nominal weight of the first 30ft of an 8wt floating line is 210 grains. The 24ft head of a Teeny T-200 sinking line is 200 grains. The 8wt line is heavier, but it floats. If you want to be assured of a sink rate of a line, check the manufactures specs. These are usually listed online and often on the box.

More traditional sink tip lines with sink tips ranging from 5ft to 20ft have improved quite a bit over the years and cast better than the older lines.

Full sink lines are generally the most difficult to cast in my opinion, but with a little practice it is not a big deal. As already stated, getting the line out of the water is perhaps the biggest issue. Full sink lines will generally get deeper faster than sink tips or integrated lines with the same specified sink rate because the entire line sinks. If purchasing a full sink line, look for a density compensated or steady sink line. Less costly standard sinking lines will often develop a belly in the line because the fatter and denser belly section of the line will sink faster than the thinner tip, which is also less dense because of the decreased ration between the weighted coating and the core of the fly line. Density compensated lines are more dense in the tip section and will sink tip first, allowing the angler to keep a more direct connection to the fly.

When selecting a flyline/sink rate to use, the conditions will dictate the optimal solution. Things like current speed or drift speed (if fishing from boat, tube, yak, etc) will effect how fast the line actually sinks. A slow sinking line that works well in still water may not be as effective in a strong current or if you boat is being pushed along by the wind since currents can impede the sink rate of a fly line. If in doubt, start with a type II or type III sink rate line (or something that sinks at 3 to 4 inches per second) as Fly Goddess suggested.

One of the reasons we have so many fly lines to choose from is that no one line can do everything well. Sometimes different lines can achieve the same result if the appropriate line specific technique is used. We have had a number of good recommendations in this thread and they are all good.

A really good inexpensive sinking line that is often overlooked is the Teeny Basic Sink BS-100. This line has a 20ft sinking section that sinks at 3.75 ips and a 40ft floating section. Casts fairly easily after you get the tip out of the water and it retails for $42. The BS-100 matches well with 3, 4, or 5 wt rods and it has enough mass to cast small clouser minnows pretty well. Another favorite of mine is the Teeny Mini-Tip. This line has a 5ft fast sinking sink tip and is easy to cast. It retails for $58. The dense tip will pull down the floating section. I regularly use this line to fish up to 6 or 7 feet deep for bass, panfish, trout, and saltwater. It is available in a 4wt. The Scientific Anglers Professional Full Sink lines retail for $44.95 and are pretty good. The Type II is available in a 4wt and the Type III ina 5wt, which should be fine on a 4wt rod. Two other good lower cost full sinking fly lines are the Rio Mainstream Type 3 and Type 6 Full Sinking fly lines. They retail for $39.95.

[bmaher287]

Thank you for all the help everyone. I ended up ordering a scientific anglers professional full sink line type II in 4 wt. As a fairly new fly fisherman, I never knew all the different options and techniques fly fisherman can use. But with help like this I am learning...slowly.

[Fly Goddess]

As mentioned, many choices. I am basically stillwater, but I do use sinking line on rivers because I fish still waters. I have all lines in 4, 5, & 6. Including the IV and V and to be honest, I have used those maybe twice in 10 years. II and III are used all the time with Intermediate in there.
I also have the Depth Charge line which is like tailingloop mentioned is 30' of a grain weighted sinking line (with 300 to 350 great for 6 wt) followed by 70 feet of an intermediate. This is a go to line in the summer or when fish have moved out deep. Kelly Galloups Streamer line is the same. And he knows how to fish rivers.
The other line of choice for me is the Type VII. It sinks like a brick and perfect for getting past those littler fish.
Also as tailingloop mentioned. Fly material makes a difference. Right down to how it is tied. Deer hair, tied tight has a cork effect, looser it will absorb water. Something to think about when fishing Muddlers.
I ended up making a Red Thread head on all my sinking flies so I could tell right away which are.

[FishnDave]

Tailingloop....WOW! That was an excellent post! Good advice from many others on this thread as well!

I've used a sinking line only on an 8wt...did some casting, but mostly trolling from a kayak for white bass in a local reservoir. This thread has me inspired...thinking I might need to try a sink-tip on a 5wt this summer on the local ponds...for casting when the crappies drop deeper.