Old Dogs Still Hunt?

[kelkay]

Okay, I've read the entire thread. I find it very interesting. Here is my take. I believe that the old patterns are just as good as the new ones. When you think the new patterns are better, it may be a case of the fish seeing the older patterns more. These same fish, usually older, have seen these flies before. Many have been caught and released back to the water. Catch and release has not been around for that long. I think the newer flies are to entice you to spend your hard earned bucks, on the latest, and greatest. I have a mix of new patterns, and old. I love the classics. I also have a huge arsenal to choose from. If anything, the older patterns are tried and true. The new ones are basically for the fish that have seen the old patterns, at least the more common ones. I also tie my own original flies, and even though they are different, they are not that different, as they are of a certain style. I think presentation does make a big difference. Size makes a fairly big difference. But I don't think that the fish need patterns to be more realistic to take the fly. I have caught more fish with the Woolly Bugger than any other fly out there. It has caught a huge variety of fish. Yes, there are times it doesn't work, but for the most part it will. I still like variety. I have been trying to learn just about all styles of tying. I believe fish like variety. I have also noticed this, what worked 5 minutes ago with stock trout, may not work at the moment. One fly or color is hot, then they stop biting. Change colors, or style, and they will bite again. Bream will bite anything. They will go after a fly indicator. (sometimes sadly, more than the actual FLY) I must say I get more satisfaction from fishing and tying classics. But to each his own. I think if a certain style does it for you, by all means tie it, and fish it. If you have confidence in it, it will perform for you.

[Steven]

Ever fish Black Earth Creek?

Of course, but not in a number of seasons. I usually head much further west on Hwy 14.

That said, we're visiting UW with my daughter next weekend and I have a pass for Saturday afternoon and Sunday. I might hit BEC on Satuday to stay kind of local (either that or Spring Creek Lodi).

[Byron haugh]

To those who do not think that fly fishing has become more difficult on Blue Ribbon rivers today than it was in the 30's and 40's when there was little fishing pressure, I offer this quote I just came across in the book "The Master Fly Weaver" by the late and great George Grant:

"In the 1930-1940 period in western Montana it was not difficult to tie a fly that would catch trout - it would have been more difficult to tie one that would not".


And, this is an interview with Andre Puyans and Rene Harrop about the Henry's Fork of the Snake River. Note Puyan's Comment...................

Andre Puyans: dumb fish in here have their Ph.D's and then the smart ones, I'msure, teach at M.I.T. or some university like that in the offseason.

[John Rhoades]

To those who do not think that fly fishing has become more difficult on Blue Ribbon rivers today than it was in the 30's and 40's when there was little fishing pressure, I offer this quote I just came across in the book "The Master Fly Weaver" by the late and great George Grant:

"In the 1930-1940 period in western Montana it was not difficult to tie a fly that would catch trout - it would have been more difficult to tie one that would not".


And, this is an interview with Andre Puyans and Rene Harrop about the Henry's Fork of the Snake River. Note Puyan's Comment...................

Andre Puyans: dumb fish in here have their Ph.D's and then the smart ones, I'msure, teach at M.I.T. or some university like that in the offseason.

When I was a student at Penn State I often fished the Fisherman's Paradise waters on Spring Creek which was just a few miles from the State College campus. In the beginning, I assumed the Paradise fish were among some of the most intelligent fish anywhere, having been educated by a myriad of the university's smartest students and faculty, including George Harvey and Joe Humphries among others.

It was about that time that I found out, quite by accident, that I could outsmart the most wily trout by using the most outlandish flies, or unusual patterns - I once switched from using a #20 Trico to a size 4/0 green deer hair bass frog, and proceeded to catch a large trout on practically every cast. Go figure.

[Byron haugh]

Interesting story John. Try that on the Henry's Fork - especially the Ranch section and let me know................

It is hard to argue with some of the greatest fly fishers around like Andre Puyans, Rene Harrop (the Henry's Fork is his home water), Mike Lawson, George Grant, etc., etc.

[JohnScott]

...And, this is an interview with Andre Puyans and Rene Harrop about the Henry's Fork of the Snake River. Note Puyan's Comment...................

Andre Puyans: dumb fish in here have their Ph.D's and then the smart ones, I'm sure, teach at M.I.T. or some university like that in the offseason.

... Henry's Fork is about 127 miles long.

I caught my first fish on a fly on that river ( June 1, 2003 ). I fished it occasionally over a six year period. It was pretty easy catching fish there, and I would have fished it more if I had enjoyed being on it, but there were many other places in the area where I prefered to spend my time fly angling.

I even fished flies ( dries, nymphs, and streamers ) that I tied myself, some fashioned after established patterns and a number of my originals over a number of miles of Henry's Fork, mostly from Upper Mesa Falls to below St. Anthony, and regularly caught a good number of fishies. That alone should tell you just how "smart" those fish are. ( Just because the fish are always right doesn't mean they are ever smart. )

John

[Byron haugh]

How was the runoff in early June? Did you float from Warm River down to Ashton?
I guess the fishing is no more difficult now than it was 60 years ago on the Western rivers. I guess guys like George Grant didn't know what they were talking about. I give up. I think the hammered and heavily guide boated stretches of rivers out there are just as easy fishing as they were 60 years ago................

PS I catch fish there too. That's why I return each year. I also fish the Madison, Firehole, Gallatin, Gardner, Slough, Bitch Creek, Box Canyon, Warm, Fall, etc., etc. But the Fork on either the Ranch or Wood Rd. 16 ranks way up there and it is difficult to catch fish on the Ranch or Wood Rd. 16.

My challenge still stands John, join me for a few days in early June.

[flybugpa]

What percent of this new school/ old school flies success is based on how good the anglers presentation is and the anglers overall skill? I don't believe any of that was brought up, or if it was ,excuse me.

[NJTroutbum]

Byron....why get offended if somebody doesn't immediately concede once a name or two is dropped?

A particular water is no more difficult or easy to fish than the experience of each individual fishing it. I've fished many waters that were declared "extremely technical" without any more difficulty experienced than fishing your average stocked creek. While other waters for some reason or another kick my butt more often than not. Each persons perception is his or her own.

Things change....best flies for water change. channels change and pools alter. Nothing stays the same. That doesn't make the fish smarter though. The only thing I've ever seen make fish harder to catch are weather/water conditions and fishing pressure. Aside from that, they are the same fish they always were.

[Byron haugh]

I'm not offended. Just at a loss. By the way, you mention "fishing pressure" - that is exactly what I have been talking about the whole time. Fishing pressure makes the fish skiddish and more reluctant to hit a fly. This is especially true when the fishing pressure consists of boat after boat of guided fishers beating the waters. And, those guided fishers are normally fishing a nymph - often below either a strike indicator or a big hopper pattern to suspend the nymph.
the fish "being smarter" is a fly fishing term for fish who are skiddish due to fishing pressure.............