Lead Sinkers Issue Again

[jszymczyk]

You sure a tough customer to please but I'll try anyhow. I took the time, not very much time either, to find a map showing documented cases of lead poisoning in wildlife. It's here http://nationalatlas.gov/mapmaker?Ap...,CAT-wild-mort
Beyond that I don't really have much to say. If government studies of lead poisoning in wildlife complete with references and pictures don't convince you what chance do I have? My own personal view is I don't really see any downside to a total lead ban in fishing tackle because the wildlife would benefit right now. Fishing tackle has been shown to be the source of lead poisoning and there are documented cases of this as shown here; http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inf.../03JCF.W01.pdf

OK, your link asserts that lead fishing sinkers were found in a whopping total of 23 birds over a FOUR YEAR period. Those sinkers ranged from split shot 7mm in diameter to pyramid sinkers 25.4mm long--- absolutely not things used by fly fishermen. I stand corrected though on my "show me a bird with a sinker" statement however the same paper mentions entanglement as being prevalent.

Fly Goddess, YOU are the one who alluded that "messed up laws" are only enforced because people try to evade them!

cycler, please explain how a total lead ban in fishing tackle would enable the "wildlife to benefit right now" ?? Your map does not show any data about HOW the lead poisoning occurred.

Please excuse me now, I have to go hug a tree.

[jszymczyk]

Mojo, how are you trying to prove your point when your reference states:

Although lead from spent ammunition and lost fishing tackle is not readily released into aquatic and terrestrial systems, under some environmental conditions it can slowly dissolve and enter groundwater, making it potentially hazardous for plants, animals and perhaps even people if it enters water bodies or is taken up in plant roots. For example, said Rattner, dissolved lead can result in lead contamination in groundwater near some shooting ranges and at heavily hunted sites, particularly those hunted year after year.

am I misunderstanding your point?

[Fly Goddess]

Fly Goddess, YOU are the one who alluded that "messed up laws" are only enforced because people try to evade them!

It takes one person to think a law does not apply to them to force a change for everyone.

[CoachBob]

Fishing math will drive you crazy because nothing is consistent.
Below are calculations using some rounded numbers to see how much lead a fly fisherman contributes to waters compared to a single shotgun load.
I have always believed that extrapolating from hunting lead to fishing lead is unfair.
Consider birdshot pellets in a single shell:

Shot Number	Pellet Diameter (Inches)	Average Pellet Weight (Grains)	Approximate # of Pellets per Ounce
12	.05	.18	2385
11	.06	.25	1750
9	.08	.75	585
8 1/2	.085	.88	485
8	.09	1.07	410
7 1/2	.095	1.25	350
6	.11	1.95	225
5	.12	2.58	170
4	.13	3.24	135
2	.15	4.86	90
BB	.18	8.75	50

Unless the hunters are very good, you can expect an average successful duck hunt may result in 10-20 shots per hunter.
Ten shots of typical 9 shot puts 5850 pellets in the water each of which weighs about 3/4 grain.
There are 437.5 grains per ounce so, generally, one hunter puts slightly less over 13 ounces in the water per day.
A size BB split shot weights 0.4 to 0.5 grams. Size 6 split shot weights 0.1 grams.
There are 28 grams to the ounce or 56 BB split shot (which, for most of us, is a BIG fly fishing split shot)
So...a fly fisherman must lose 56 BB split shot per day to equal a duck hunter's contribution or 5.6 BB split shot to equal one shotgun shot.

I will admit that on a really bad day in Colorado, I lost ten size 6 (equal to a little more than one BB)shot to a stream full of nasty rocks.

Play around with these numbers and you'll see why I think putting us in the same boat as lead shot hunters is unfair.

[CoachBob]

Forgot to say the table is from http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[Mojo]

Mojo, how are you trying to prove your point when your reference states:

Although lead from spent ammunition and lost fishing tackle is not readily released into aquatic and terrestrial systems, under some environmental conditions it can slowly dissolve and enter groundwater, making it potentially hazardous for plants, animals and perhaps even people if it enters water bodies or is taken up in plant roots. For example, said Rattner, dissolved lead can result in lead contamination in groundwater near some shooting ranges and at heavily hunted sites, particularly those hunted year after year.

am I misunderstanding your point?

My point is that this article points out how wildlife is affected by lead. Read the complete article, no speed reading, and go back and re-read your previous posts. There may not be many studies on fish, but the facts on birds and animals are there.

[Fatman]

Not saying it is a good thing to "ban lead" but, if it is banned, buying up a bunch could be a waste of money right? I know lead cannot be used at all including on a fly in Yellowstone, and kind of figure that is where the ban is going.
Now Hep, what about the effect on human hands when handling lead?

Actually None. It's all common sense - which I don't think the enviro's want to understand. When I mold, I do it safely. No drinks or food. Heavy duty fan for any fumes. When done, non only myself but many country wide are using the new Powder Paint to coat their jigs - this prevents them if lost from leaching any lead. For anglers who don't make their own tackle the alternative materials for tackle YES are there. But for those of us who do, those materials are extremely expensive and in some case's there is no way we could use them, tungsten is the main one 6100 degrees to melt. I sure don't have that kind of blast furnace.

I have been making jigs and sinkers since I was 11 years old (yes, I had supervision LOL) and I'm soon to be 50. When ever I get blood work done I have them check it - so another shot to the enviro's that claim we have poisoned ourselves with it, mine is zip, nada.

I'm going to state this again as in an earlier post - how many anglers in the study who reported losing tackle actually mis-reported because what they were using was actually NON-LEAD?????? Example: How many people buy a couple packs of sinkers in Walmart and go fishing?? Lots, and if they reported in that study how many they lost - how many don't realize they're non-lead. How much of the reported tackle lost and reported in that study was in effect NON-LEAD and was reported incorrectly - sure does change the outcome of that report.

Here in Vermont - you can't use lead split shot or sinkers under 1/2 oz., and with the laws as they are here waterfowl hunters had to switch to non-lead shot.

So sorry, yes I feel the reports are flawed.

[cycler68]

OK, your link asserts that lead fishing sinkers were found in a whopping total of 23 birds over a FOUR YEAR period. Those sinkers ranged from split shot 7mm in diameter to pyramid sinkers 25.4mm long--- absolutely not things used by fly fishermen. I stand corrected though on my "show me a bird with a sinker" statement however the same paper mentions entanglement as being prevalent.

The wildlife would benefit because those 23 birds wouldn't have been poisoned. Granted that isn't a lot of birds but if you were a specie of waterfowl you'd be happy. From other posts it looks like lead leaching into the environment, at least at this present time, is most likely a much larger problem. I applaud the people who are powder coating their lead fishing tackle as I have found lots of lead fishing tackle of various sorts, including jigs and sinkers in my own tackle box, in various stages of corrosion.

[cycler68]

After I made the post above I thought of another point. For every lead poisoned bird found & autopsied there are who knows how many others that die and are never found.

[jszymczyk]

since the focus of lead fishing tackle appears to be birds... I think we should all join forces and push for legislation which BANS CATS!! Government funded research has shown that idiot cat owners who let their creatures roam outdoors facilitate the murder of over ONE HUNDRED MILLION songbirds ANNUALLY in the US alone!

http://library.fws.gov/bird_publications/songbrd.html


MY infinitesimal annual contribution of lead into "the environment" through fly fishing is inconsequential.

The whole point of this isn't LEAD at all--- it is the practice of forcing laws down our throats which are based solely on EMOTION.

So if you're worried about birds, shoot all the cats you can (with lead-free ammunition, of course)