What's really the case with fly rod warranties?

[John Rhoades]

Every day I see many people selling their used fly rods (and other fly fishing gear) together with blank warranty cards that were not filled out and sent to the rod manufacturer at the time of purchase. And, there are an equal number of buyers that are willing to pay a premium price for those rods over what they would pay for the rod with no warranty card.

A number of the rod manufacturers stipulate that their warranty applies to the original purchaser only, and for purchases made from an authorized manufacturer. Some may also stipulate that the purchase information must be sent in within a certain time frame after the initial purchase. (Sage's warranty card, for example, says 10 days after purchase.)

In my experience, sometimes I talk about the warranty with the dealer before buying a rod, and other times not. I am sometimes lax in sending in these warranty cards though, and I just remembered that I still have a blank card for a Sage Z-Axis that I bought last summer (from an authorized dealer) that I have not yet sent in. I may also have other blank warranty cards going back farther than that one too.

Orvis' rod warranty goes a step farther, and states that "The Orvis 25-Year Guarantee is valid only for the original owner of a rod. Rods sold on E-Bay or similar online auctions carry the guarantee as long as they are new rods sold by authorized Orvis dealers. Used rods sold on E-Bay or any other website do not carry this guarantee."

However, I just looked, and there may be a couple hundred Orvis fly rods with blank warranty cards being auctioned on Ebay right now by private sellers other than authorized Orvis dealers.

I fully appreciate the significant amount of warranty expense incurred by rod manufacturers, and that we pay for this (significant) warranty cost in the (high) price of every fly rod purchased.

On the other hand, I'm not so sure how serious rod manufacturers are in controlling their warranty policies. For example, I've never been turned down by Sage on a rod repair, although I may or may not have sent in the warranty card. (Believe me when I say I've had more than my share of repairs, and Sage always repairs or replaces them in a first class manner.)

If rod manufacturers are really as serious about controlling their warranty costs as they appear to be in controlling selling prices, why don't they require the dealer submit this warranty information to them when they sell the rod, rather than leaving it up to the buyer? (Admittedly, I'm a lot more interested in catching fish than filling out paperwork!) I can only remember once when a dealer offered to do this for me, which was probably a good thing all around for him to do.

I think it would be a hard thing for a manufacturer to penalize a retail customer and refuse to service a legitimate warranty claim just because they don't have a properly completed warranty card on file; however, they could certainly do a better job, in my opinion, in controlling rod warranties if they required their dealers to submit warranty cards/original purchaser information to them directly.

(I bet you'd never be able to buy a new car and submit the warranty information yourself, at your leisure.)

What's your opinion?

[flywatersmallie]

I never really thought about it but I know this.... Orvis will honor the warranty whether you are or are not the original owner or whether you sent the card in. Kudos for them, I guess.

I have bought several rods from my local shop (Sage/Winston dealer) and he takes the liberty of filling the cards out and sending them in. I think its a cool thing to do, not a lot of extra effort on his part yet going that extra little bit shows that he cares about his customer's investment. That shop knows how to build lifetime relationships. They are very good at what they do!

[ScottP]

Based on my experience with Sage and Orvis, the only store-bought rods I have (I've built the rest), the warranty card is a joke. I've returned broken rods and never been asked if I ever filled out the card; as long as I was willing to pay the shipping cost, they took care of the rest. I have a feeling I could have been the 5th owner of a rod and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Regards,
Scott

[Buddy Sanders]

My experiences have been similar to everyone else's.

I've had rods repaired or replaced for FREE (not even shipping and handling) from a manufacturer that I told on the phone I'd bought the rod second hand and that it had seen five years of hard use BEFORE I bought it, and I'd had it for three years. They sent me new rod, gratis. Wasn't a fly rod, though.

I think we have two separate things happening here. One is a dedication to customer service. Rod companies, if they aren't short sighted, recognize the benefit of customer loyalty and the stories that will bounce around sites like this one when they do something that basically costs them little or nothing. Many outdoor related companies tend to do this. See White Wolf's post about his vise, and numerous others posted here.

Another is the actual 'cost' to the manufacturer of a fly rod to do something like this. Last I heard, Sage charged something like $30 for a return/replace plus shipping. That's probably close to their out of pocket 'cost' (don't confuse cost with value here) for their high end rods. So it basically costs them nothing to offer this 'service'. Other makers have similar policies. Back when I was bass fishing, many rod makers had 'no fault/no question' warranties, but had a small fee, usually in the fifteen to twenty dollar range, for 'handling' the return/replace. I was told by several of these makers that this was the actual 'cost' of the materials involved.

So, they get great press, have happy customers, and it doesn't cost too much more than the labor/marketing costs which they would have paid anyway.

As far as 'enforcing' warranty rules, that's a no win for them in just about every case. Getting the 'dealers' to fill out the warranty cards would be nice, but last time I checked, rods aren't serialized and if the customer claims to be the original owner, how do you argue with them and still keep that valuable customer friendly reputation. It's just not worth it.


With the rising cost of rods, the warranties will probably get moe open, not more restrictive. Good for all of us in the long run because they are not going to lower rod costs anyway.

Good Luck!

Buddy

[dave potts]

Just look at the math and the Marketing hype. Most all rod manufacturers that offer warranties up the price of the rods by around $10 to cover what it's going to cost them to repair or replace the few that are ever going to be returned.

Let's say they sell 1000 rods and up the price on each by $10 over what they might normally sell them for. That brings in $10,000 ,which more than pays for the few they are ever going to get sent in for replacement.

Thus they have more than covered the cost of their warranty and the Marketing hype they get for their "unconditional warranty" makes them look great and that brings in more sales.

I used to work for a manufacturer that sold products to industrial customers. We routinely made up for customers misusing our products by providing refunds, or replacements because we knew it was good business and would more than pay for itself in future orders.

Dave

I didn't fully read Buddy's post before I wrote mine but guess I am essentially saying what he said.

[John Rhoades]

I agree wholeheartedly about the customer service side of the issue, and I personally tend to shy away from future purchases from any manufacturer when I have a bad experience in that regard.

Although I don't know what the actual total cost of a fly rod is to a manufacturer, I would guess that it is closer to 40% of the retail price (say $240.00 on a $600.00 retail fly rod, than the much smaller nominal amount, if any, that the manufacturer charges for a warranty service fee. It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone told me that the warranty cost per rod was 10% of the manufacturer's costs - perhaps $25.00 on each fly rod sold.

I'm not familiar with many premium fly rod manufacturers, but I do know that Sage's fly rods are serially numbered; however, I don't know how well these numbers are actually controlled.

Could be that the bottom line is that it's far more important to all involved to have superior customer service over adhering to the precise warranty policy.

[kbproctor]

I had a customer bring me a Sage reel that had drag problems. I asked him about warranty and he said there wasn't any as he had bought it second hand. I called Sage to buy the drag cartridge for him and they sent it to me free of charge. I am not an authorized Sage dealer and told them it was bought second hand. Pretty impressive customer service.

As for warranty cost.... Customer service like the above example does not come cheap. The idiot proof warranties many of us have come to expect are a major portion of the cost of a new rod. That rod is being paid for roughy twice when you buy it new.

Compare specifications between Sage blanks and MHX blanks. The MHX blank at about 1/4 the price of a Sage blank is lighter in almost every case and is favorably comparable when one compares CCS measurements and other specs. Oh! The blank still carries a lifetime warranty. Why the difference in price? That no questions asked customer service and idiot proof warranty.

[Buddy Sanders]

John,

The 'wholesale' cost of most products, what the dealer or store pays, typically runs 33% to 60% of 'retail'. Fly rods, especially high end ones, are probably in the 50 to 60% range due to price controls put in place by the manufacturer. So that $600 rod 'cost' the store/dealer no more than $360, allowing the dealer to make $240 on each sale.

If it 'costs' the manufacturer 40% of the remainder, then he's getting no more than $144 for each rod. Labor is always the biggest expense for any business selling hand made products. If labor only runs 50% (not likely that low) then the 'cost' of the materials has to be below $72. If they only spend 10% of the $360 they get paid for the rod in marketing and R & D (doubt it's that low), then you can knock another $36 off the 'cost of the materials and we are down to $36.

Even if you decrease the labor to 25% (any company with labor costs in that range would be a fortune 500 star with folks lining up to copy their business model) you'd still be at only around $50 for the actual component 'cost'.

And then you have to figure out the 'profit' part of all this.....

The materials used in fly rod don't cost much at all. The R & D, the labor, yeah, that costs, as does marketing and advertising. But the blank, the guides, reel seats, cork for handles, that stuff is really cheap, which is why they can stay in business selling the rods for only $600.

Buddy

[Dave E]

John,

Many companies include language like this in their warranty literature: This guarantee / warranty gives you specific, limited legal rights. You may have additional rights under applicable state law.

This may not mean much at first glance, but it's a legal-esse reminder that the warranty restrictions that a company is using, may not hold water in the state where the consumer lives.
Your state attorney general office or dept. of consumer affairs is the best place to look to, for an explanation.

Best, Dave

[kbproctor]

John,

The 'wholesale' cost of most products, what the dealer or store pays, typically runs 33% to 60% of 'retail'.

I think most shops wish they could get 60%. Bare bones minimum for most shops is 30%. I won't sell it if I can't get at least that. 50%-60% is a pipe dream these days. It just doesn't happen which is part of why mom and pop shops are becoming rarer.


The materials used in fly rod don't cost much at all. The R & D, the labor, yeah, that costs, as does marketing and advertising. But the blank, the guides, reel seats, cork for handles, that stuff is really cheap, which is why they can stay in business selling the rods for only $600.

Buddy

Also figure that most manufacturers do NOT take time to find the spine on a rod or do a static test. Guide placement is determined not for each blank, but for that taper as an average. Skipping these steps saves a ton of time and labor costs. Add to this savings the fact that many of today's fly rods are made in countries in the Pacific Rim where labor costs are much lower.

If Wright-McGill can produce quality equipment in the US for a lower price than most, why can't the rest?