Sink tip line

[predator55]

Hopefully somebody here has experience with this. I use the lead core line for sink tips, the stuff i've used is T-8. I was reading this web page a guy wrote http://www.byrdultrafly.com/sublines.htm and he has a chart at the end. I'm using this stuff succesfully with a 6wt rod and haven't experienced any problems. I have 4 or 5 different length lines made up for what I assumed would make for the longer one sinking faster. He gives a sink rate time matching the grain line only. So does 8' sink at the same rate as 2 ft.
I like the stuff cause I can just remove it and fish surface with poppers or rubber spiders. Alot of places I just carry one rod and it's alot more multi purpose. Anybody with experience using this stuff and can clarify how much I should add to my line and explain why. This link has me confused where I once thought i knew what I was doing.
Al

[tailingloop]

The chart in the referenced link is a simplification based on just the sink rates of the Teeny and Orvis lines he used as examples. Nor does it reflect some of the faster sinking lines such as Rio T8,T11,T14, and T17, Scientific Anglers T10, T12, T14, and T18, or Cortland LC13 So it is not necessarily accurate for other lines nor for the way you are using your sink tips.


The key factor in sink rate is density of the line, not the mass. The first 30ft of an 11wt floating flyline will nominally weigh 330 grains but it floats where 30ft of Rio T11, which also weighs 330 grains, will sink at about 8 inches per second. The first 30ft of an intermediate 11wt line will sink at around 2 inches per second. If they have the same mass, why do they sink at different weights? Because of different density of the lines. If you compare the three, the floater will have the greatest diameter, the intermediate will be thinner, and the T8 thinnest. Greater mass per volume yields greater density thus the T8 sinks faster.

If you take 5 feet of Rio T8 (40 grains) and 30 ft of Rio T8 (240 grains) they will sink at roughly the same rate because they are the same density. There will be some difference due to the increased variations in total surface area (and resulting friction) and mass (which may help overcome that friction), but it will be fairly close. If you take an 8' and a 2' section of T8 and put them in a pool you will find that they sink about the same, though the longer (heavier) piece may get to the bottom a bit quicker.

If you take 7 feet of Rio T8 (56 grains - 7ips sink rate) and 4 feet of Rio T14 (also 56 grains - 9ips sink rate0) the T14 will sink faster though they are the same mass since the T14 is more dense.

However you don't just fish a 2' or an 8' piece of T8. You attach to another line. In your case it is being used to create a sink tip by adding to a floating line. The floating line will inhibit the sink rate by holding one end of the sink tip near the surface. As you lengthen the sink tip you will move more of it away from the floating portion that tries to hold it near the surface and that increased length and the increased mass will help counteract the resistance of the floating line so the tip will sink faster and deeper. So while nominally, the 2' and 8' piece of T8 will sink at about the same rate on their own, when attached to a floating line the longer piece will get deeper faster. Your assumption is correct. Your 2' length may work well for working over the tops of weeds a few feet below the surface or in a pool in a slow moving stream where the 8' tip may be better working a deep drop off or a pool in a faster moving stream.


Lines from different manufacturers, even if they weigh the same per given length, may have different densities and thus sink at different rates. For example Rio T14 (14grains per foot) has a rated sink rate of 9ips where Scientific Anglers T-14+ Express (also 14grains per foot) is rated for 7-8ips. That is because the density of the Rio line is a bit greater.

In the examples in the referenced link, the lines sink faster as mass in grains increase because the manufacturer has also increased the density of the line by including more tungsten powder in the line. They increase the mass so the lines will load progressively heavier rods but keep the diameter of the line as thin as possible. It is the resulting density increase that results in faster sink rate, not the increase in mass (weight).

Because of the variations between different lines it is difficult to come up with an absolute rule or guide that relates mass (weight in grains) to sink rate.

[predator55]

Great explanation, thanks, I see now how the sinking is gauged. I don't understand one other thing then. If i wanted to get deeper and use 12' of any of the sinking lines, can I use a leader and tippet length of say 9'? Then when i'm casting the t-8 would be in the eyes and need to be casted out. How would the sinking line be secured to the floating line so it would move smoothly thru the guides when being casted? If a small section of heavy clear hard mono were nail knotted to both the floating line and sinking line, wouldn't you have a casting problem? This also creates a problem for me as the line is fixed and would be designated sinking tip. Possibly a loop on the leader end would make that changable but a loop to loop on the floating line end to the t-8 would create casting problems.

Right now my favorite line set-up is the 2' of t-8 and a 5' leader tippet I make with a tandem fly setup. A small fly up front and something line a beadhead wooley on the end. I seem to get a more horizontal retrieve with the t-8 sinking along with the wooley. Your absolutley correct on the depth I fish at over weeds. At this short length my floating line is the only thing going threw the guides. I'm happy with this set-up cause i can change to a popper or other surface fly quickly.

I am just curious about the first part and how I would setup a longer t-8 section (say 12') /how it affects casting/ and leader choice. I have some Kelly Gallop flies that would work well 5 to 6 foot down when they're hitting at that depth. Basically at this point, I've never fished my t-8 unless it was completely out of the guides at the start of the cast...I've done 6' t-8 with a 3' tippet out of my canoe and it worked ok short castink.

By the way, thanks for the detailed explanation, it helped clear up alot of issues. Al

[tailingloop]

When using home made connections that allow the removal and replacement of the sink tip it is difficult to get a connection that will go through the guides smoothly. For the best casting properties you want the tip to be looped directly to the fly line without the mono. I use braided loops for this and construct my own as shown here : www.danblanton.com/gettinglooped.html . However these still can get hung up just as similar loops on older versions of multi-tip lines did. You can also buy braided loops but I find most commercially available loops to be not as strong and durable as the ones I make. I find it works much better to have the entire tip outside of the guides, but has you have observed, this can get inconvenient as the tip gets longer.

A mono section between the line an tip is workable for short tip lengths of 1' or 2' or so. . I think the best way to do this is to nail knot a short section, 3" to 6", of heavy mono to the fly line as a leader butt and put a loop in the end of this leader butt. Use 30 or 40lb test line, or cut a section from the butt of a tapered leader (even a used one). This works but the thin mono between the two thicker pieces of fly line can lead to some funky casting.

The new versions of the multi-tip lines have welded loops and these go through the guides much better. I was given newer version of a Rio Versatip line a few years ago. These lines have interchangeable 15ft tips and welded loop. I had minimal issues with the loops going through the guides. But I don't know of a way create equivalent welded loops myself. Scientific Anglers sells 30ft sections of their T10, T12, and T14 lines with a welded loop in each end. These can be cut, giving you two sections with a loop on one end. If cut into more than two you will have two sections with and end loop and one or more sections with no loops. Many of the line makers now offer lines with welded loops in the end. One of these looped sinking sections, when connected to the built in welded loop of a fly line, may go through the guides much better like with the Rio Versitip line, but I have not had an opportunity to try this myself yet.

Any time you start adding a heavy and dense sinktip to the end of a factory fly line, or even add a floating section, it will start to effect your casting adversely. The taper on a a fly line is designed to turn over a leader and flies of the size and bulk that might normally be carried with the line. Flylines weren't designed to turn over and add on sink tip. It works reasonably well for short tips but gets more difficult as the tip gets longer. Add a long leader to that and things can really get interesting. I used to use 6' add on sink tips quite often and usually kept my total leader length in the 3'-6' range. I bought them (Orvis) or made them by cutting off line from the back end of different density full sink lines. For me, I found that if I started going beyond about 6-8 feet of add on sink tip I just didn't like the casting properties. I have used add on tips up to 15' but had to do lob casts and still have the connection outside the tip top. Interesting thing was that If I used 25-30 feet of add on sink tip the system would cast better and work like a shooting head system, but not as well.

Another thought on the leader is that you can sometimes do yourself a disservice by using a long leader with a sinking line. The length of the leader you can use effectively will depend on the sink rate of the fly, the leader material, and the sink rate of the fly line. If your fly doesn't sink fast enough, the end of the fly line will sink below the level of the fly and you will have a belly in the leader that impairs strike detection. Even heavily weighted flies, especially if made of bulky or buoyant materials may not sink as fast as we think, compared to the sinking fly line. I discovered this many years ago when fishing some large heavily weighted clouser minnows with a leadcore shooting head around the local kelp beds. These flies would really hurt if they hit a person on the cast. I was using an 8ft leader. The sun popped out of the clouds and the water was very clear that day. Visibility was more than 25ft. I had made a short cast to a close by kelp stringer and watched my line and fly sink. By the time the end of the flyline was about 15ft down the fly was only about 10ft down. I shortened my leader to 3ft and started catching fish.

The use of add on sink tips is a compromise between performance and functionality. It provides some versatility without having to carry multiple outfits. I use them when I need to go with minimal gear and prefer the factory multi-tip lines, or better yet multiple rigs. There is, of course a cost factor with muti tip lines, which cost as much as an inexpensive rod and reel, as with multiple rod/line setups. I usually carry multiple rods myself keep the extra or extras handy and rigged up in Dan Blanton's Rigged and Ready Rod bags, one of which I have even modified with a sling to carry on my back. But If going really light, I still carry a set of 4 sink tips. In my cast I have 4 5' tips of different densities to get different sink rates.

[predator55]

Thanks for all that info. That's what was missing out of that link I posted originally. I copy and pasted it into my word processor for future reference. I knew there was more to it than what he wrote.