Rod weights & line strengths

[Buddy Sanders]

Bob,

I Read all of it...They agree with me, as far as I can see.

My premise still stands with the three 'givens' I listed.

With equal tippet strengths that you can break with the rod, it's ONLY the tippet strength that determines how much pressure you can put on a fish and thus how quickly you can land it.

Again, if your tippet breaks at 4 pounds, it's not possible to put more than four pounds of pressure on the fish, regardless of the rod used.

You don't fight tarpon with a 3 wt. because you don't normally fish tarpon with 6 pound tippet.

Buddy

[Bobinmich]

Buddy,

You did notice that the maximum load you can put on the tippet is with the rod pointed directly at the fish. I'll bet that is not how you play a fish. Once you put bend in the rod to protect your tippet from shock loading, the heavier rod will have an advantage in applied load. This is the same reason you need a heavier rod to cast a heavier line as you can see in the Mechanics articles. The heavier rod puts more energy into the line because you can exert a greater force on it.

Buddy, I will bet you are a very skilled fisherman. You probably instintively adjust your rod angle when playing a fish to get the best tradeoff between shock protection and load on the fish. This is probably why you don't need a heavier rod to play a good sized fish. But many of us do not have that skill. Using a heavier rod would allow someone to be less skilled in how they protect their equipment from damage. This is because he can apply more force on a rod that is deflected than with lighter tackle and we don't need the quiclness to drop the rod to protect it against health tugs. And remember, you can break a 6 wt. with a 5X tippet if you get the angle too steep.

We routinely fish leader shy 10 to 14 pound steel head with 4 and 6 pound leaders. I used to fish them with a 9 foot 6 wt. I now fish them with a 9 1/2 foot 7 wt. This is because you can keep pressure on the fish while he executes one of those aerials that steel head are famous for. Never seen anyone good enough to try this with a 3 weight. It probably can be done but not by me or anyone else I fish with.

Anyway, by the time you digest all the stuff in those articles, you will see that a flexed 6 wt. can put more force on the fish than a 3 wt. with the same flex in it. It's the same reason you can cast a heavier line and cast further with a 6 than a 3. You can get good load vs flex data from Bill Hanneman's data base or the Sexy Loops data base. The key term is ERN is this data subset.

Again, I have no doubt that you can fair perfectly well with your 3 weight and have no need to use bigger equipment. Many of the rest of use may do better with heavier equipment.

Godspeed,

Bob

[John_N]

A couple of thoughts, all offered in the respectful sense solicited by the original poster and not in an argumentative one:

I understand the comments about understanding the limits of one's tackle, proper ways to play fish, etc. I'll never consider myself a master of this sport, but I think I do a pretty fair job on both of those counts. I also did not intend for my statements about breaking strengths of tippet to be taken as any sort of absolutes. What I said was, with emphasis added: "we seldom approach the breaking strength of our tippet from the pressure we exert on the fish". There are countless ways that tippet can break from other causes - bad knots, knicks or abrasions, underwater obstructions, sudden shock, etc., etc. All I'm saying is, if it comes down strictly to the pressure we can apply with a rod, I don't think it's going to happen. So if we set aside failure from indirect causes like those mentioned above and assume we have an otherwise reliable connection to our fishy friend, do you really think the weight of the rod makes no difference in the amount of pressure or leverage that can be applied to the fish? If one could accept an extreme example and agree to the notion that an 8 wt. would allow you to apply more force than a 2 wt. (and I don't care what fish fighting technique or tippet strength we use, you won't convince me that that's NOT the case), then any comparison in between those two (4 wt. vs. 6, for example) becomes just a matter of degrees, doesn't it?

My point simply is, if an undamaged tippet holds up its end of the bargain, as it usually does, then it comes down to what you can do with the rod. With all other things being equal, i.e. the same tippet, the same angler and the same good or bad fish fighting techniques employed, I personally believe the strength of the rod becomes the most conspicuous point of differentiation.

[nighthawk]

It seems to me I have seen fishermen criticized for using too light of a rod for the size fish they are pursuing, but the same people seem to find it acceptable to use whatever weight line they deem necessary to best present and hook the fish they are after. It seems to me that I can land most fish as quickly using my 3 wt. rod and a 4 lb. tippet as I can on my 5 wt. or 6 wt. rod using the same tippet. I would like to see an intelligent discussion along these lines.

Provided you know how to handle your gear the answer is yes. Oh someone mentioned Bill Dance. Well old Bill seems to know what he is doing.

Sacrilege! A non fly fisherman that actually knows what he is doing! The faster you can retrieve and release that fish the better it's chances of survival so just like good old Bill Dance I rip them in as fast as I can. I have to say that about half way through all of this thread my eyes glazed over, my mouth hung open and I was wondering why we have to analyze things to the point that it sucks all the fun out of the actual event of fly fishing. For crying out loud the man didn't ask for the mysteries of the universe to be solved. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple because Stupid I am.

[Silver Creek]

Bob mentioned rod angle to the fly line but what is critical in wearing the fish out is the line angle to the water. It is the angle of pull on the fish that matters as much, if not more, than the angle of pull on the rod.

Whenever the angle of force on the fish is directed upward, some of the pull of the line goes to LIFTING the fish rather than pulling the fish toward the rod tip. Lets say that the angle of the line to the water is 90 degrees (i.e., right above the fish), then 100% of the pull goes to lifting the dead weight of the fish and NONE of the pull goes to pulling the fish toward you. At at 45 degree angle, 50% of the force goes to lifting the fish and 50% goes to pulling the fish toward you. If you put the rod tip under water at the level of the fish and pull, 100% of the force pulls the fish toward you.

Whenever you have any of the force directed up, the fish can use the force of the flowing river against you. It tips its pectoral fins down and the water against the fins makes the fish dive and now you are fighting not only the dead weight of the fish, but the water pressure forcing the fish down against the upward pull of the line.

I see anglers all the time with rod tips held high. The only reason to hold a high rod tip is to avoid snags in the water or to decrease the drag of the fly line in the water because the fish is so far away.

In normal circumstances, fight larger fish with the rod to your side and not up. You then maximize the force of the pull toward you and all of the work of fighting the pull is done by the fish and not the tilt of its pectoral fins or gravity. To fight large tarpon, you will see experienced saltwater anglers actually put the rod tip under the water to maximize the pull of the line toward the boat.

By putting the rod to your side, you can also confuse the fish. With the rod to your right side, the fish will pull to the left against the rod pull. Then you can immediately switch the rod to the left side, and now the fish is actually swimming toward rather than away from the angle of pull. You will gain line before the fish can to reverse direction to pull to the right. Then you reverse to the right again, and the fish now has to go left to fight the rod. You can actually "walk" fish to you with this right, left, right, left maneuver. Try it on large fish and see if it doesn't work. In fact, you can bring the fish so quickly to you that they will be too fresh to net.

Remember to keep the rod low as possible and to the side for big fish UNLESS there are snags or other reasons to clear the line off of the water.

Regarding tippets and rod weight ratings, the key is that lighter rod ratings almost always mean softer rod tips for the same class of rod action. So lighter rods are are generally able to protect light tippets more effectively, but they have weaker butts to pressure fish with stronger tippets. I find longer rods better to fight fish because a longer rod allows you to change the angle of pull through a larger arc when you do the walk the fish maneuver.

Longer rods for a given action and rod weight will also have a stronger butt sections. As rods get longer the butt section gets thicker and stronger. So I like to use the longest possible rod for a given rod weight. As as example, I took two 10 ft (5 wt and 7 wt) GLoomis GLX Classics to Alaska's famous Copper River which has huge rainbows. I fished the 5 weight and never went to the 7 weight even on huge fish. I asked Gary Borger why my 5 weight handled the large bows.

The reason he gave was that my 5 weight was 10 feet long and not the usual 9 footer. That extra foot of rod length meant that my butt section was as strong as a 9 foot 7 weight. Since I fought the large fish with the butt and not the tip, I was able to pressure the fish just like a 9 feet 7 weight GLX. That butt section was so strong that I popped a 2X tippet tied to a streamer on the strike.

The disadvantage of a longer rod is when you are landiing the fish, especially large fish. If you are in a float tube or other device without a long enough net to reach the fish, longer rods make it difficylt and you can break the rod tip as it over bed=nds to bring the fish close enough to you.

The amount of pressure you can put on a tippet is a combination of rod weight rating, rod action rating, and the rod length. It is not as simple as a "X" weight rod can always generate more pressure than a "Y" weight rod.

[Silver Creek]

Bob mentioned rod angle to the fly line but what is critical in wearing the fish out is the line angle to the water. It is the angle of pull on the fish that matters as much, if not more, than the angle of pull on the rod.

Whenever the angle of force on the fish is directed upward, some of the pull of the line goes to LIFTING the fish rather than pulling the fish toward the rod tip. Lets say that the angle of the line to the water is 90 degrees (i.e., right above the fish), then 100% of the pull goes to lifting the dead weight of the fish and NONE of the pull goes to pulling the fish toward you. At at 45 degree angle, 50% of the force goes to lifting the fish and 50% goes to pulling the fish toward you. If you put the rod tip under water at the level of the fish and pull, 100% of the force pulls the fish toward you.

Whenever you have any of the force directed up, the fish can use the force of the flowing river against you. It tips its pectoral fins down and the water against the fins makes the fish dive and now you are fighting not only the dead weight of the fish, but the water pressure forcing the fish down against the upward pull of the line.

I see anglers all the time with rod tips held high. The only reason to hold a high rod tip is to avoid snags in the water or to decrease the drag of the fly line in the water because the fish is so far away.

In normal circumstances, fight larger fish with the rod to your side and not up. You then maximize the force of the pull toward you and all of the work of fighting the pull is done by the fish and not the tilt of its pectoral fins or gravity. To fight large tarpon, you will see experienced saltwater anglers actually put the rod tip under the water to maximize the pull of the line toward the boat.

By putting the rod to your side, you can also confuse the fish. With the rod to your right side, the fish will pull to the left against the rod pull. Then you can immediately switch the rod to the left side, and now the fish is actually swimming toward rather than away from the angle of pull. You will gain line before the fish can to reverse direction to pull to the right. Then you reverse to the right again, and the fish now has to go left to fight the rod. You can actually "walk" fish to you with this right, left, right, left maneuver. Try it on large fish and see if it doesn't work. In fact, you can bring the fish so quickly to you that they will be too fresh to net.

Remember to keep the rod low as possible and to the side for big fish UNLESS there are snags or other reasons to clear the line off of the water.

Regarding tippets and rod weight ratings, the key is that lighter rod ratings almost always mean softer rod tips for the same class of rod action. So lighter rods are are generally able to protect light tippets more effectively, but they have weaker butts to pressure fish with stronger tippets. I find longer rods better to fight fish because a longer rod allows you to change the angle of pull through a larger arc when you do the walk the fish maneuver.

Longer rods for a given action and rod weight will also have a stronger butt sections. As rods get longer the butt section gets thicker and stronger. So I like to use the longest possible rod for a given rod weight. As as example, I took two 10 ft (5 wt and 7 wt) GLoomis GLX Classics to Alaska's famous Copper River which has huge rainbows. I fished the 5 weight and never went to the 7 weight even on huge fish. I asked Gary Borger why my 5 weight handled the large bows.

The reason he gave was that my 5 weight was 10 feet long and not the usual 9 footer. That extra foot of rod length meant that my butt section was as strong as a 9 foot 7 weight. Since I fought the large fish with the butt and not the tip, I was able to pressure the fish just like a 9 feet 7 weight GLX. That butt section was so strong that I popped a 2X tippet tied to a streamer on the strike.

The disadvantage of a longer rod is when you are landing the fish, especially large fish. If you are in a float tube or other device without a long enough net to reach the fish, longer rods make it difficult. You can break the rod tip as it over bends to bring the fish close enough to you to land.

The amount of pressure you can put on a tippet is a combination of rod weight rating, rod action rating, and the rod length. It is not as simple as a "X" weight rod can always generate more pressure than a "Y" weight rod.

[Buddy Sanders]

Again,

Everyone seems to be ignoring one half of this.

It's not just the rod pulling on the fish.

You also pull with the line, either by stripping or reeling.

And, still, if you can break the tippet with rod, then it's the tippet strength and only the tippet strength that determines how hard you can pull on the fish.

Now, if you are fishing a 6 wt. rod and 10 pound tippet, you can pull harder with that than you can with a 3 wt. rod and 5 pound tippet. Twice as hard, in fact.

But if both rods are equiped with 5 pound tippet, you can't pull harder on the fish with either rod than 5 pounds.

If you do that, the tippet breaks.

Skill helps in how you apply that force, and skill is the deciding factor in how quickly a fly fisherman can land a fish regardless of rod or line weights. However, regardless of how good you are or how unskilled, you still have only the tippet strength to apply to the fish. Because if you apply more force than the tippet will take, it breaks.

This doesn't need to be that hard.

Buddy

[Gemrod]

totally agree with Buddy.

Go hang weights on a 5lb tippet hanging from a curtain rod.....or some rod. Hang ten of them. Hang barbell weights on one till it breaks. Then do it with quarts of water...on the next one, then bags of sand on the next one,.... rocks, turquoise, diamonds, ........

It does not matter what is applying the pressure. When the tippet gets to its break point it is going to break. It is not dynamically designed to work better with turquoise than copper. It is not designed to work better with 6wt rods than 2 wt rods......

When it gets to the break point it is going to break. Period.

A chain that is three different sizes tied together pulling a dead truck along.....the weakest section of the chain is the weakest chain in that length of total chain.

THE WEAKEST LINK IN A FLY LINE FISHING RIG IS THE "TIPPET"....when you are rigged for trout. Well, that is if your tippet is normal. I don't think I would fish 30lb backing as a tippet with 10 pound fly line. I think even I know which part of THAT rig is going to go first. But that takes the kind of a guy that wires his air conditioner which is mounted on the roof of his house.....and has 30amp fuses in the unit....up there on the roof.....and wires it to 10amp ckt breakers in his utility panel. Then keeps wondering why his ckt breaker keeps tripping and his air conditioner won't stay on.

Not germaine to the issue of which rods to fish with? Yes, it is. It is about what will take the tippet to it's breaking point. And it does NOT matter what material is being used to stretch it to that breaking point, because it is indeed going to break.

Well, I guess that's what makes horse races. Everybody has a different opinion. I am in Buddy's corner.....not that anyone cares. But I agree with Buddy Sanders on this subject. And I sure have found this whole thread interesting reading. Very fascinating opinions and comments. None of them all that far off base. All have truth in them....I think.

Anywhoooo.....I think I understand enough to know how I am going to fly fish. BTW I fish my favorite small stream with an 11' 6wt rod.

[RodWest]

Good work Buddy, you hit the nail on the head. Folks it is the tippet strength. Forget about all the myths of rod angle, fish fighting techniques it comes down to tippet strength. Whether you are fishing with a one weight, 10 weight or otherwise the tippet will break at its breaking point. Having said that it it not likely that you can depend on the rated tippet strength as your benchmark. It actuality it comes down to the knot strengths, the knot you have tied in that tippet regardless of rod weight. I very seldom contribute but this thread was a fun read.

[Bobinmich]

Folks it is the tippet strength. Forget about all the myths of rod angle, fish fighting techniques it comes down to tippet strength. Whether you are fishing with a one weight, 10 weight or otherwise the tippet will break at its breaking point.

Soooo. Why are we bringing a rod? If the rod doesn't matter, why bring one? Oh, I forgot. You still have to cast.

There is no doubt that the weak point in the line is the tippet - or tippet knots if we get picky. The whole point of using a rod with more backbone is you can put more force on the line with some bend in the rod to protect from violent trickseys by el fisho. The force you put on the line will usually be substantially less than the tippet strength if you have some bend to the rod. Read that stuff I posted. The facts are in there if you want to find them. Or not. The tippet argument seems logical to most of you. So go with it if you like. I am sure you are all fine fishermen and have no trouble landing fish. Just what is actually going on doesn't effect the result anyway.

Godspeed and good fishing,
And Merry Christmas to all.

Bob