Hackles, saddles and capes, oh my!

[Jeff Clough]

As I'm putting together a list of materials to pick up after the holidays, I'm examining the various options when it comes to buying saddles and capes. Mainly, this would be for dry fly hackles in sizes ranging from 12 to 18, tips for upright wings and whatnot. So, I have some questions.

Up until now, I've been tying with Whiting 100s which are really limiting (one size) and expensive (average of $18 per package). I mention this so you have an idea of where I'm coming from.

I know that there are different grades likes Gold, Silver and Bronze and that the better grades give you more sizes and higher quality. Unfortunately, these are relative measures that I have no real comparison for. If I picked up a bronze saddle and compared it to someone's silver saddle, how upset would I be? Is it worth the price difference for a beginning tyer who's only filling his own fly boxes to go silver?

Similarly, I know that I can purchase saddles/capes in full, half and quarters. I'm planning on picking up half saddles due to the price, but I'm uncertain how many flies that's going to let me tie and how much variety I might be sacrificing. Should I just go with fulls?

Lastly, I'm pretty sure I understand the differences between saddles and capes, but I'd really like someone here to explain it more fully.

Thanks for any help!

[Ron Eagle Elk]

Jeff,

The main difference between saddles and capes is the length of the feathers. Good genetic saddles will give you feathers so long that you can tie more than one fly with a single feather (what you've been getting in the 100 packs). Capes on the other hand have shorter feathers so you generally get one fly per feather.

Saddles, however offer feathers with a limited size range, say 8, 10 and 12, while a good cape will let you tie a greater range of sizes say 32 to 2.

Would you cry if you saw someone elses silver saddle next to your bronze. I don't know. He'd have more feathers, you'd have spent less money. Sounds like a pretty even trade to me. I have a hard time telling a bronze grade feather from a silver laid side by side. I have no trouble telling a bronze saddle next to a silver saddle. The silver will be fuller, packed witih more feathers.

REE

[Sully]

* Terminology:
o Necks and Capes are the same thing. They come from the back of the neck. Imagine if a redneck rooster was wearing a long mullet hair style; that would be the cape. Also, imagine the mane of a horse.
o Saddle, from the back of chicken, like where a saddle would be if you saw a low budget sci-fi movie with a GI-Joe riding the chicken.
* Necks and Saddles are graded to help us make purchasing decisions (and the merchant make pricing decisions)
o When buying, you will find the hackle graded with terms like: 1,2,3, ABC, Gold, Silver, Bronze
o Grade is based on the quantity, quality, and size of the feathers.
o The best value is in higher quality (more flies per $)
+ The only question, will you actually tie enough flies to invest in a high grade saddle?

* Advantage Neck
o Necks have a wider variety of sizes, from 10 to 24. Plus a lot of left overs after the dry flies are tied:
+ Large hackles on the side, called spade, which have good fibers for tails
+ Woolly bugger hackle on back
+ Streamer wings
+ Stripped quills for bodies

* Counter-point Saddles
o Saddles have longer feathers ? many more flies per feather, but in a narrow range (3 sizes)
+ Ask the fly shop to inspect the saddle. Tell them which sizes you want to tie (ie. 12-16), and ask for a saddle that matches. Don?t pick a random saddle.
+ For these sizes, you get a lot more flies worth.

[narcodog]

If you buy Collins necks you get the saddles for free.

[ScottP]

If you buy Collins necks you get the saddles for free.

Charlie has some great necks out there, and I love the ones I own, but I'd never compare his saddles to anything Whiting/Hebert-Miner puts out. Good for streamers and foam creations that don't require hackle for floation and maybe some bigger dries.

Regards,
Scott

[idryfly]

Charlie has some great necks out there, and I love the ones I own, but I'd never compare his saddles to anything Whiting/Hebert-Miner puts out. Good for streamers and foam creations that don't require hackle for floation and maybe some bigger dries.

Regards,
Scott

Not sure what Collins necks you've seen or had but in my 40 plus years of tying Collins necks are the BEST you can buy hands down. Whiting just pales by comparison.

[Jeff Clough]

The main difference between saddles and capes is the length of the feathers. Good genetic saddles will give you feathers so long that you can tie more than one fly with a single feather (what you've been getting in the 100 packs). Capes on the other hand have shorter feathers so you generally get one fly per feather.

Saddles, however offer feathers with a limited size range, say 8, 10 and 12, while a good cape will let you tie a greater range of sizes say 32 to 2.

Would you cry if you saw someone elses silver saddle next to your bronze. I don't know. He'd have more feathers, you'd have spent less money. Sounds like a pretty even trade to me. I have a hard time telling a bronze grade feather from a silver laid side by side. I have no trouble telling a bronze saddle next to a silver saddle. The silver will be fuller, packed witih more feathers.

Hmm...it sounds like if I want a range of sizes, capes are the way to go. Let me ask another question along this line:

If I bought a Whiting bronze grade half cape, how many flies might I reasonably expect to tie in a given size (anything from 12 to 1? I understand there's a lot of variables in this question, so I don't expect a hard and fast number, but rather just what your experience would lead you to estimate.

[kengore]

Necks have lots of feathers in a wide range of sizes for the price, but they still have a sweet spot. I have started to strip and sort my necks in to pre-sized fethers, I am amazed at the size distrubution. The majority of the feathers will be in a range of 3-4 sizes. If if you don't use all the feather are you really saving any money? I have a whole box of necks that are picked clean in the 12-18 range with 3/4 of the feathers left for which I have little use ( 75% waste, seems kind of expensive) If you can find a neck with the sweet spot in your size range then buy it! As an example the last grizzly neck (whiting silver) I stripped I estimate the following distrubution... Note: one way to estimate the feather count is to look at the skin side, each bump is a single feather.

size 8 or above = 8
size 10 = 12
size 12 = 24
size 14 = 36
size 16 = 40
size 18 = 32
size 20 = 22
size 22 or below, left on pelt - too small to keep track of as loose feathers

The Whitings 100's packes are saddle hackles, they might seem expensive but there is zero waste. Saddle hackle feathers are very long with little taper and can often be used to tie several flies from a single feather. Neck hackles are much shorter with more taper, the useful portion of the feather varies with quality and grade but you can usually tie with the midddle 2/3. For really small flies I like the extra long 'handle' that saddle hackles provide. I own one Whitings grizzly neck in a platinum grade, I got it as a gift, it is of amazing quality. Most of my other hackles are bronze or silver grades.

As a result I have been trying to match my hackle purchases to what specific flies I'm going to tie.

For some of my 'go to' flies I only need a specific size, for example I use a lot of Adams Parachutes in sizes 12-16. As a result I buy grizzly and coachman brown saddles in the appropriate size. For the smaller stuff (18-20) I still like the Whiting 100's packs, esp. the 'midge' sizes, you can tie lot of flies with a size 22 package.

Some hackle colors can be used for lots of different patterns or make good substitutes. So I purchase a few 'all purpose' necks in the following colors. Grizzly, Barred Ginger, Medium Dun. I like to buy the best grade I can afford, I get more usable feathers with the higher grades. I am very pleased with the Conranch Hackle products, they are a sponser of this site and you can call Dennis up and request a neck hackle hand selected for your particular application. http://www.conranch.com/ I will certainly buy from them in the future.

Lastly I need a few colors and sizes for very specific patterns. I need some size 12 in black for ants, some very small light dun for tiny BWO's (blue wing olive), some big size 8-10 in yellow/olive grizzly for green drakes. I use so few of these that I find it easiest to buy the 100's packs or simply pick out a few feathers from my neck hakles and dye them to order.

For wings I find that the Whiting's hen necks are more useful than dry fly hackle tips. Genetic dry fly hackle has become so specific that I find the tips to be too fine for a good wing profile.

For tails I use the big feathers left over on the necks, more recently I have started using the whiting tail packs. These feathers are of such high quality that I can tie a dozen may flies with a single feather.

I also purchase some of the Whiting 'bugger packs' in basic colors for tying streamers, black, brown, grizzly.

[ScottP]

Not sure what Collins necks you've seen or had but in my 40 plus years of tying Collins necks are the BEST you can buy hands down. Whiting just pales by comparison.

Please re-read my post - I said Charlie's saddles don't compare to Whiting's. I love the capes he produces; some fantastic colors.

Regards,
Scott

[John Rhoades]

Personally, I do not like to buy necks via the mail without personally inspecting them, and rarely do so.

Since grading is done by people, it is very subjective and you are bound to have variations in grading, even going so far as different grades being applied by the same person from day to day to necks that are nearly identical in quality.

Last week, for example, I examined 2 Whiting necks at a local fly shop. Both were the same color, but one was graded as a silver and the other a bronze. I'd be willing to bet that very few knowledgable people would have selected the silver as being superior to the bronze, unless (and this might be the key issue) you were looking for some very minute and specific characteristics of a few of the feathers in the higher graded neck. I would have been very disappointed in the silver grade neck if I had purchased it sight unseen. (I certainly would not call myself an expert at grading quality of hackle, although I've been around them for many years, including being an importer and retailer of necks at one time.)

John