Why Snake Type Guides

[deathb4disco]

A local guide I know builds rods, and he asked the chief designer at one of the major rod companies "why snakes guides". This was his exact response:

Snake guides are traditional
Nothing more, nothing less

[Silver Creek]

Regarding rod "balance", most folks think about balance during casting. But when we cast, the amount of line outside the rod varies. The more line outside the guides, the less line on the reel to "balance" the rod.

Since casting is a dynamic process, rod balance during the cast is dynamic and not static. In my view rod balance during casting is nonsense. If a rod were truly balanced throughout the cast, it would never be tip light or heavy which means we would not feel the flex of the rod as it resist the alternating forces of the back cast and forward cast. It is the alternating imbalance of forces during the cast that is the feel of the cast.

Where balance is most important is when we are "high sticking". We have the rod and reel at the end of our arm which is also extended. So the effect of rod balance is exaggerated. I want a rod that is tip light so that it's natural attitude is tip up in that situation. When the rod naturally assume that attitude, I don't need to force it in that position. A tip heavy rod is very tiring especially if it is a long rod of 10 ft. That is why I use a very light long rod when nymphing large rivers. For me it is a 5 wt. 10 ft. GLoomis GLX Classic that I use to fish the Madison.

For longer casts, with more line out, the reel gets lighter and the balance becomes more neutral and the rod tip is then easier to hold in a lower position to follow the drift.

The longer the rod, the more important "balance" is because of the lever effect.

There is also swing weight that is separate from balance. A rod and reel that are "balanced" but are heavier has a higher swing weight; a larger mass begets a greater momentum.

So I want a light rod with a light reel to lower swing weight but still be tip light when high sticking.

[Silver Creek]

A local guide I know builds rods, and he asked the chief designer at one of the major rod companies "why snakes guides". This was his exact response:

Snake guides are traditional
Nothing more, nothing less

I think that response is begging the question. It adds nothing and says nothing. It is an answer that avoids giving an answer. So I take issue with that designer's response.

Bamboo was tradition but it was replaced by fiberglass and fiberglass by graphite. Ferrules were fitted metal but now are tip over butt integrated graphite. Silk lines were tradition but they were replaced by plastic. Horse hair for leader material was tradition but it was replaced by nylon and fluorocarbon. Old reels were pressed metal, than cast, and now bar stock machined. Drags were click pawl, then pressed cork, and now deldrin. Don't even get me started on waders and rainwear.

Rod companies spend thousands of dollars on finding the best materials and methods for fly rod design and production. To think they would ignore guides because of tradition is ridiculous.

If tradition were important there would be no market for Thingamabobbers. If tradition were the reason for snake guides, why are they currently wound with nylon and covered with epoxy rather than silk and shellac?

Why have all the above changed and snake guides not? The reason is that snake guides are the lightest functional guides for fly rods. How much longer would it have taken to say that rather than to defer to tradition?

[dudley]

While setting up our flyrods today my friend ask.....
"Why does this flyrod have guides like a spinning rod?" (single foot guides)
"And my other rod has these swirley type guides" (snake guides)

I had no answer... Usually a flyrod has one or two stripping guides and then the rest are the single wire snake guides. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Aloha,


Quote:
Originally Posted by deathb4disco
A local guide I know builds rods, and he asked the chief designer at one of the major rod companies "why snakes guides". This was his exact response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley
Snake guides are traditional
Nothing more, nothing less
Stan

I think that response is begging the question. It adds nothing and says nothing. It is an answer that avoids giving an answer. So I take issue with that designer's response.

That's not avoiding the answer.... it is the answer
There's nothing to add because there's nothing else to it

It's not so hard to grasp

[Silver Creek]

Respctfully, we'll have to agree to disagree on tradtion. My view is that there are reasons for snake guides and it is not tradition, it is function.

[Uncle Jesse]

Being skeptical and practical, almost to a fault, I suspect snake guides were designed because they were easy and cheap to make, curl a wire around a rod several times (spring like) figure how often to cut the wire; bend the wire's ends perpendicular to the circle and you have a snake guide.

Single foot were likely for a similar reason, either some commercial rod maker thought they would be good marketing or cost less to produce a rod with single foot guides: Less wrapping (labor) and less thread and varnish (material).

I remember when single foot spinning guides came out but not fly rod guides, did fly rods happen to follow the sprinning/casting ceramic single foot guides?

[Jackster]

if you tried to tell me you could tell the difference I would figure you would lie about other things too.

My $.02, now worth about $.0075.

How cute. How long have you held on to that little ditty waiting for a chance to use it?

Just because we mere mortals may not be able to feel the difference between guide types doesn't mean some people can't. Really.
It all boils down to small incremental differences that when totaled add up.
I have quite a few rods with a good mix of snake and single foot guides on them. I can't tell any difference in the casting or fishing of them so I don't really care which type guides they are as long as they don't weigh a ton, don't wear out quickly and don't have gaudy-looking wraps holding them on.

[Uncle Jesse]

I haven't held on to that ditty at all, I use it frequently, usually joking with friends, which is what I was doing here. If a Lefty Kreh or Joan Wulff told me they could tell the difference I would accept that as truth, but for the most of the rest of us I seriously doubt it. I have made the argument that the combined length of the snake guide could conceivably result in a slight stiffen of the rod over it lenght.

If fisherman gather around to discuss fishing, politic or what ever isn't it almost mandatory that someone accuse another of lying ever now and then?

[Sully]

....
If fisherman gather around to discuss fishing, politic or what ever isn't it almost mandatory that someone accuse another of lying ever now and then?

The FIRST liar...dont stand a chance!!!!.....

"I caught a bass the other day that weighed 65 lbs..................took a picture of it..............Picture weighed 4 lbs "

[Backcastwards]

I love this website! Who would have ever thought that there would be so much passion regarding something so undeserving of heated debate.
Would someone tell me; fur, or foam flypatch?