Intermediate fly tying class suggestions

[Clay]

Our local TU has offered a beginning fly tying class for a number of years and we have tried an intermediate class in the past but for whatever reason it was a one time thing. We have decided to try it again and I have been asked to be apart of the discussion on what is the best way to go about the class.

I don't think of myself as a great tier by any means and am relatively new at this myself, but I also learned long ago that one of the best ways to learn new things for yourself is to teach; it absolutely makes you analyze your own techniques and what you consider fundamentals.

A much more experienced tier will lead the class. He is both articulate and skilled. I have been asked to assist and asked for my input. I wish to tap into the collective experiences here for some guidance. We have some rough parameters so far which include:

Must have your own tools. This will save on logistics and it shows the tiers commitment to the hobby.

Must have two years of tying experience.

What type of requirements might you suggest? We don't want it too restrictive, but don't want it so open that people that aren't serious or can't put thread on a hook want to sign up.

One of the things that I would like to promote is different techniques that can be applied to many different flies. I wish to teach techniques so that students can applies these to any pattern they want. What types of techniques to you think are appropriate for this class and what patterns would you think would best represent the teaching of your suggestion?

I would like the latter patterns to build on the beginning patterns in somewhat of a logical way.

As in much of life there is no need to recreate the wheel and would really like to avoid any pitfalls that you might have had in either taking such a class in the past or teaching one.

Thanks in advance for all of your ideas.

Rick

[Fatman]

Clay,

Take a look right here at the Intermeditae tying section, not only for what flies are tied but for what techniques are being used.

I'd leave your requirements right where they are since your starting the class back up. for them to use their own tools and have 2 years tying experience should be enough to judge if you need to change it.

Have lots of fun, I know when I took class's at my local shop we BS'd and laughed and LEARNED ALOT!!!!!!!

Good luck and let us know how it turned out.

Fatman

[rainbowchaser]

Perhaps two years of experience or submit a fly you tied to the instructor to show you are ready. Some people will have tied a lot more in six months than others will in two years. Ask all of the students the first night what they they think they need to learn. The answers may show you some techiques you need to cover early and guide you in what else to teach.

[Cold]

Perhaps two years of experience or submit a fly you tied to the instructor to show you are ready. Some people will have tied a lot more in six months than others will in two years. Ask all of the students the first night what they they think they need to learn. The answers may show you some techiques you need to cover early and guide you in what else to teach.

Agreed.

I've been tying for only a short time, but I've tied alot in that time, and I feel I could handle (and would benefit more from) an intermediate class.

Certainly not saying that I'm good at it by any means, just that within a year's time, I'm no longer a "beginner" per se: I know how to put the hook in the vise, how to wind thread, whip finish, dub, etc.

[Clay]

Some good pts already to be considered. Thanks for the kick in the head Fatman, Al Campbell's articles are great and I don't know how I forgot about them.

Cold and RB chaser, like I said, relatively new myself so I understand your comments that it is more about the individual than about the duration. I know a guy who has been fly fishing for 20 plus years and can't control his loops worth a darn. The kid I have been working with on the stream just this year throws pretty, pretty loops and can make that line do what he wills it to do. Time in a hobby really doesn't equate to skill level.

One of the things that we are concerned with is the amount of demand. We don't want 50 people in the class and very well might have to have a max number. The last beginners class had over 40 people in it and it definately was too many people to teach all effectively. Want some ways to handle the student load or restrict too many students.

What would you guys recomend for student to instructor ratios?

[Ray Kunz]

Your basic ideas are good but here are my additional personal suggestions.
1. Concentrate of specific techniques not patterns.
2. Give fly proportions a high priority.
3. Add discussions about materials quality and attributes (All dubbings are not the same.)
4. Explain how the many varieties of synthetic materials are merely marketing efforts.
5. Demonstrate different techniques used for same proceedures. (Individuals do have preferences.)
6. Resist promoting premium tools as being vital. (Just discuss features.)

[whatfly]

In my experience, this is actually a pretty tough class to put together for two reasons. First, there are inevitably tiers who overestimate their abilities who sign up, no matter what the requirements. This often ends up slowing down the class and can be quite frustrating for the instructor and assistants. I know a lot of tiers who have been tying for a few years who are not much beyond the advanced beginner stage. Heck, I even met a gentleman once who had been tying for 40 years, and yet he could not dub a body to save his life.

Second, while there is a consensus on the basic skill set a beginner must master (e.g. dubbing, thread/material control, proportions, etc.), you will find there is no such agreement on what constitutes the required intermediate skills (nor advanced for that matter). There are plenty of patterns that one could say are "intermediate" in level, but most of these are simply more complex and do not really require a new skill set much beyond what is taught in a decent beginner's class.

We've tried a couple different solutions in our classes, none of which worked particularly well in my opinion. Our latest plan is to approach this class thematically. Each session is an introduction to a style of tying that goes beyond the application of a basic skill set. Spinning deer hair, tying small (<18) patterns, salt/warm-water patterns, are all possibiities. The problem is none of these topics are really fundamental, and most are regional/time dependent and therefore have limited appeal. What these classes are meant to achieve is to get the beginning tiers to tie more, which is really the only key to furthering one's tying skill.

This is a very long-winded way of say that I do not think there is a good answer to your question. My own thinking is now leaning towards focussing the most on the beginning classes while offerring many opportunities for folks to tie but outside the context of single class. At the intermediate level it is more important in my mind to get people to tie, tie anything, than it is to cover a particular course plan.

[Clay]

I've enjoyed the comments so far and can't disagree with any of them. For me the class will build upon the beginners class and approach some still very basic skill sets that we did not cover in the beginners class like spinning hair, parachutes, upright wings and more complex patterns that have more steps to them than the simple ties of the beginners class.

As I said, the club has tried this in the past and it was a difficult situation.

Maybe a twist on this thread or a diversion, but I would like to see the club invest in an inexpensive camera and projector system for such classes. Open to suggestions here as well. Not looking for a professional camera system.

I have taken my digital still camera and hooked it up to a TV in the video mode and it will show up OK for small classes. Want a step up from that without taking out a huge equipment loan.

[CoachBob]

Advertise the class as follows:

Individuals should be comfortable tying... (list common flies like Adams, Wooly Bugger, pheasant tail nymph, etc.)

OR

Individuals should be comfortable... (list skills like palmering hackle, spining hair, dubbing, etc.)

In that way attendees should screen themselves.

[whatfly]

Clay:

With regards to A/V, I think you will find this will GREATLY enhance the learning process. We've been using just an off the shelf consumer digital video camera and an LCD projector with fair results. I personally much prefer a CRT or even better a LCD monitor/TV because the image is much crisper and you don't have have to dim the lights, but it is a bit more ungainly set up. A decent digital camcorder and a 22" LCD should not cost much more than $600 if you shop around. If you can spend more, even better...