Double surgeons or spider hitch

[warmfishernc]

On my 8wt I use a loop to loop connection. My loops are double surgeons. My leader typically ends up being about 3-4' of 12# floro when I use my 350 grain sinking line as I was this weekend. Several times I broke off just below the knot, with the loop still intact.

So is this telling me that the double surgeons is not holding up and I should be using some other stronger knot to make my loops, i.e. spider hitch or perfection loop? Or maybe the knot's fine, and the line just below the loop is the weakest and it always breaks there no matter what knot I use...it just sucked to have to re-tie the whole 3-4' floro section after break-offs.

Only one break off did I feel as though it shouldn't have broken. The rest of the time it was when I was hung on the bottom or the the line was pretty chewed up and broke.

A few times my knots held up though...

[Ken Y]

Nice Catch!

I use a perfection loop for all the thick leaders. They are easy to tye and strong.

[tailingloop]

The spider hitch is strong knot but doesn't hold up well when shocked. If I am in a hurry to put and end loop on I use a 4 times through surgeons knot and better yet a six times through. I have also found that a non-slip mono loop knot holds better than a double surgeons.

The best I have used, and my preference, is to put loops in using a bimini for lines 10 kg (22lb) or less. The loop created by the bimini is folded over then a two turn surgeons knot is tied in the folded over loop creating a two strand loop.

With some practice, biminis are no big deal to tie. I tend to tie up enough for an entire year each fall. I tie up leader sections while watching football games. I then loop them together and wind them on an old monofilament spool for storage.

For leader butts > 10kg I just use a two turn surgeons knot or a perfection loop. The tippet will be weaker than the butt section so the weaker knot is just fine.

[Uncle Barry]

Good morning Warmfish.
If this is correct ?
"Several times I broke off just below the knot, with the loop still intact."

Then there is not a problem with the knots, there is a problem with your leader material, the Fluoc.

A two turn surgeons.
Myself, I would never even dream of a two turn knot with FC, I always use a four turn.

Two turn is ok in monofilament leaders, but not FC.
Because FC will not compress, rather it will cut its self off !

The other knot for FC is the Slim Beauty, which is the best of all for FC.

Kind regards,
UB

[kjgallaher]

I am not sure about this, but I think a "six turn" surgeons loop turns out to be the same as a spider hitch with six turns around your thumb.

Keith

[Thunderthumbs]

I've only ever used a double surgeons knot for my flouro-mono connection and I've NEVER had a problem with it. It sounds like your flourocarbon might be the problem, and not the knot.

tt.

[Buddy Sanders]

If you are using a 'double' surgeons knot, it's weak and will ALWAYS break right at where the line enters the knot. That's the 'stress point' of this knot, and unless you are using heavy line, the double surgeons is not a very strong loop.

What you want when breaking off a snagged fly is for the knot at the FLY to break, not the one on your loop.

Take the time to test your knots...you'll find that if you use a strong tippet to fly knot, something like a palomar or fisherman's bend, the surgeons knots (ALL of them) will break before the tippet/fly connection does.

What you need is a stronger loop knot, or a way to replace that 'loop to loop' connection with something stronger. The Bimini Twist is about the best, but many find it tiresome or tricky to tie. I've gone to a small metal ring tied in with Palomars (strongest connection I've found so far).

Some research will find you lots of loops...but don't use the Duncan, it's fine for heay butt sections but is too weak for tippet.

Buddy

[Jed]

Bimini twist is the bestm but it is not quick knot to tie on the fly. I use a perfection loop for the situation you describe. I think it is an 85% knot while the Bimini is a 100% knot (percentages are from memory, and not a very good memory either).

jed

[GILs_GONE_WILD]

Tie all your Biminis at home where you have the time.

Tie the Spider Hitch on the water if you're looking for something easy, fast and not a whole lot of difference in reliability.

They are easily tied even while blindfolded, standing on your head in a 4 foot chop.

[bonefishwhisperer]

[QUOTE=Uncle Barry;295544]Good morning Warmfish.
If this is correct ?
"Several times I broke off just below the knot, with the loop still intact."

Then there is not a problem with the knots, there is a problem with your leader material, the Fluoc.

A two turn surgeons.
Myself, I would never even dream of a two turn knot with FC, I always use a four turn.

Two turn is ok in monofilament leaders, but not FC.
Because FC will not compress, rather it will cut its self off !


I would agree with the FC problem...while I have never had problems with loop to loop I rarely use them but if I do a bimini and a adjustable loop knot do the trick...I have had similar problem with the FC breaking mid tippet and after 3 permit losses in a row still am baffled but I took pictures as my leader kinds melted away...try new brand of FC IMHO and good luck