The limits of over- and under-lining

[busbee]

George V. Roberts, Jr. writes:

"In the hands of a competent flycaster, a fast action 10-weight rod can consistently cast an entire 90-foot, 6-weight line."

Lefty Kreh writes:

"When conditions are windy, you will need more weight in the line. For fishing short distances,... use a line one size larger. [allows loading]. If you are going to cast into the wind at long distances, use a line one size smaller, with at least forty feet of line extended beyound the tip for false casting.... [Using] a heavier line than normal will simply cause the rod to bow deeply, creating large open loops that will not drive well into a breeze.
"Light floating line should also be used on very calm days in salt water. I opt for a 6-weight line for bonefishing...."

There is a bit of a coherence problem in Kreh's move from a paragraph on what is clearly over- and under-lining, with no mention of whether the line floats or sinks, to the next paragraph, which begins with "Light floating lines should also be used on very calm days in salt water." (The quote is from page 100 of Lefty Kreh's Ultimate Guide to Fly Fishing, which is probably a collection of his writings cut and pasted together somewhat clumsily by some editor, so it is surely not a problem with Kreh's writing.)

Kreh could have said a "6-weight outfit for bonefishing...." instead of line, but the chapter is on Line Selection. Now the great majority of fly fishers would surely assume that Kreh is talking about a 6-weight outfit, not using a 6-weight line on, say, an 8-weight rod. But given the Roberts quote, it is not so clear about Kreh. Does Kreh really use a 6-weight rod for bonefish?

Kreh definitely believes in light for dry-fly fishing. Earlier on page 100 he writes that for dry-fly fishing "rarely is a 6-weight or heavier line needed. Most of the time a 2-, 3-, or 4-weight is best...."

By the way, Kreh begins the chaper on line selection with the truism that different outfits require different weights of lines to match the different rods. After that, his ideas get less clear.

So, as a practical decision for salt water, reasonably, just how far can we, or rather, should we go in over- and underlining? (It seems that Kreh does not even use the terms "over- and under-lining."

Busbee

[Buddy Sanders]

Busbee,

There are no 'limits'.

Lines and rods are just tools, and rather versatile ones at that.

Many competant casters find that they can use heavier or lighter lines to get specific results under certain circumstances and/or conditions.

It takes experimentation and versatility, along with ingenuity and practice, to figure out what each different combination can and can't do for YOU.

Many fishermen don't bother.

Matter of choice, like many things in this pleasurable pastime of ours...

Good Luck!

Buddy

[busbee]

Thanks, Buddy.

OK, so Roberts was reasonably saying that a 6-wt line on a 10 rod can can just fine, and Kreh was saying there can be a fisherly reason to use such a combination.

Another thing, Buddy: I had a question in the salt forum about using a 7 reel on an 8 and an 8-9 rod. The concensus was that it was merely an issue of backing capacity. Putting that together with what Kreh is saying, if you have a six-weight reel that can hold 150 yards of backing and a 6-wt line, it would be fine with a nine rod for a calm day on the bonefish flats, though the combination probably would not win the respect and admiration of fellow bonefishers.

(Concerning 150 yards of backing, Kreh says: "Many people recommend over 200 yards. Forget it.... Think about it. If you have an albacore -- which run pretty well -- and he rips 150 yards of backing from your reel, if you add 30 more yards for line and leader -- that's one and two-thirds of a football field away! That will happen only in your dreams.")

Of course there are those who say a six reel cannot "balance" a 9 rod, but as someone wrote on the Web, "I don't like to pay good money for a light rod and then tie an anchor on the end of it."

So, Buddy, would you likewise say there are no limits about rod weight and reel weight combinations? As long as you have enough backing? Or are there other issues?

And even with the backing, it is somehow appealing to refrain from fly fishing with 250 yards of backing, which is the equivalent of wearing three belts and two pairs of suspenders. I guess I would sleep better in a world where just every once in a while a fish took the backing to the arbor and then snapped the tippet.

Busbee

[RickB]

My understanding is that "balancing" a rod and reel has more to with the physical weight of the reel than it's line rating. Since weights vary between makers and models of reels I am more interested making sure that the feel of the rod and reel combo is comfortable to me than whether or not the line weight ratings are matched. Other factors go into reel selection as well, for instance the type of fishing and the target species. Some species (steelhead, salmon, bones, etc) require a better drag and more backing capacity so I look for those features.

Of course, I'm no expert, but that's my understanding. I'll be interested to see what the gurus around here think.

Rick

[okflyfisher]

Castwell can cast with a broom handle and catch a salmon on it ( talk about being underlined). He did it to make the point that is more about the caster than the equipment. Just because you can do somthing does not mean that you would do it in most situations

A fly caster should work on casting well with a balanced outfit before they start jumping 4 line sizes. My point is that a polished caster will be able to cast well regardless of the set up.

By the way Roberts , Kreh and Castwell are all accomplised casters

I am trying to be the voice of modertation here as there are a lot of new bees that read these forums

[Buddy Sanders]

Busby,

I have a very simple view when it comes to reels.

Use the lightest reel that you can afford to get that will do the job you need it to do.

Sometimes you'll need a reel with a certain level of backing capacity and a functional drag. Sometimes all the reel does is hold the line and the backing is just 'filler'.

Physically 'balancing' a fly rod is basically impossble. Too many variables. Don't consider this, just what you expect the reel to do.

Backing has two purposes. First and foremost, it's there to 'fill' the reel. You need to use the amount needed to perform this task. That is what determines the 'amount', and there is no 'too much' or 'not enough' for a given reel, only the 'right' amount to fill the reel. What that 'distance' is in terms of yards of backing will vary based on the 'type' of backing and the amount of space taken up by the fly line.

Backing also allows more 'run distance' when fighting hard running fish. How much you need for this depends on what type of fishing you are doing, and is incredibly subjective. YOU have to decide, and then deal with the trade offs involved. If your current reel won't hold enough 'backing distance' for the type of fish you catch, in your opinion, then you need a larger reel, etc..

Whether or not you want to play with over or under lining a rod is completely up to you. Guys like Kreh and his ilk have had lots of time to play with things like this, were very accomplished casters, and could aford to have a wide variety of reels/lines/spools on hand for any given situation.

Most of us don't have those options, and if we are 'wrong' about it, then we could ruin a precious fishing day.

Up to you, of course.

Buddy