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Thread: mourning dove?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: mourning dove?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyrodde
    Bowfin,

    What law(s) are you referencing? I will give them a thorough looking through. And I will comment after.
    We've gone through this before on another thread. This is why legal issues need to be left to attorneys.

    He is referring to United States Code Title 16, Chapter 7, Subchapter II, The Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 (MBTA), which has been ammended many, many times over the years and is still a monstrosity.

    Convictions are rare when filed only under the MBTA, and most have been for gross, purposeful violations by cooperations, farmers, or groups of individuals. The FWS, as a matter of policy, does not enforce the MBTA when it involves logging operations or any government agency.

    Sections 703 and 704, under Prohibited Actions, even start with the statement " Unless permitted by Regulations...." Hunting Laws are Regulations, therefore legal gamebirds in the US are not covered by this Act, at least during hunting seasons. Other laws cover what you can and cannot do with legally harvested gamebirds, but not this Act, by it's own wording.

    Under the MBTA, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to determine under what circumstances the hunting of migratory birds is permissible, and exercise descretion as to enforcement, therefore, the MBTA is not a blanket prohibition against killing migratory birds, it simply prohibits killing migratory birds in an unauthorized manner. For example, the Department of the Interior has promulgated regulations allowing hunters to kill migratory birds, as long as the hunters do not hunt over baited fields, or outside authorized hunting seasons.

    The Dept. Of Interior also exempts the U.S. Military and it's personnel from the MBTA when pursuant to military duties. Windmill Power Generator companies, power companies and even Airlines have been allowed to 'get by' with selective non-enforcement. Also, individuals are prohibited from pursuing legal action against any of the above concerns for lack of enforcement (US Supreme Court; 497 US 871, 891 (1990) Lujan v. National Wildlife Federation). To date, there have ben few sucessful convictions under this Act when used as the sole basis for prosecution. 8 out of every 10 cases are summarily dismissed on technicalities.

    Here is the kicker that makes this law so difficult to enforce against individuals simply possessing feathers. Section 711 of the MBTA states: The Act cannot be construed to prevent the breeding of migratory game birds on farms and preserves, and the sale of birds lawfully bred to increase the food supply. Not only are Migratory game birds bred by companies and individuals, but they are bred in some case specifically to be re-introduced in the wild, ie; STOCKED. In Ga. as well as many other states, any dove you see is more than likely stocked, as are ducks and geese. And in United States v. Conners, 894 f. 2d 987, 994 ( 8th Cir. 1990), the US 8th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the MBTA does NOT apply to captive-reared birds, regardless of where they are found. And since it is Criminal Law, then United States v. Delahoussaye, 573 f. 2d 910, 912-913 (5th Cir. 197, known as the "Delahoussaye" Ruling applies, which means that to secure a conviction, the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that (a) The bird(s) in question were indeed wild and not captive-bred, and (b) the Defendant knew, or should have known the birds were wild, and not 'stocked'. Remember, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.


    I did "READ THE LAW", and here it is, http://ipl.unm.edu/cwl/fedbook/mbta.html. But reading a law is not enough. You also have to apply it to other similar laws, and Case Law/Precedents to understand it's 'real world' applications. As I said before, legal matters are best left to attorneys and judges.

    The chances of you being prosecuted for tying flies with your dove feathers are almost nil. If you got them legally, then you can do what you want with them, except maybe sell them, at least as regards to the MBTA.

    Semper Fi!

  2. #72
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    Default Re: mourning dove?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Valencic
    bowfin47,

    Nobody was driving over a cliff. Opinions and dialog were being exchanged. The use of caps and a series of exclamations, when posting on the Internet, is more often than not viewed as a sign of anger and/or screaming to get a point across. When our children acted out like that, they were corrected and the behavior was either changed or they were sent to their room to "think about their actions."

    Since bringing this to your attention brought about a confrontational response, and I cannot send you to your room, I like your suggestion to ignore you rather than to dialog/argue with you. Consider it done.

    Joe
    Seems like a lot of us are getting our fur brushed the wrong way. Maybe we should all just take a deep breath and say OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM.

    Bowfin, I think the problem is the fact that you had a conversation with a Wildlife Officer, and now you appear to be comming on as a Self-Professed expert on the subject. I need to tell you something about Enforcement Officers, whether they are Police, Deputies, Game Rangers, or whatever. They are not Law experts and most of them don't understand the laws any better than you do, but that's OK. It's not thier job to necesarily understand, but simply to arrest suspected violators, protect and secure evidence, and bring all before a Judge and attorneys. They have a tough enough job as it is, without requiring them to join the Bar as well.

    The system will determine if a law has been broken, and the penalty thereof. It takes many, many years of higher education to understand the nuances of applicable laws. And actually, if the Officer did anything but quote the law to you, then that Officer could be guilty of Practicing Law without a license (see what I mean about the laws being screwy?). Enforcement Officers are not allowed to give out legal advice. Anytime someone gives you information, you need to consider the source, before taking a hard stand on it. I would definitely talk to an attorney before getting radical on any subject (in this case, I did, since one of my sons is an attorney in Atlanta). The information I related came direct from a licensed practicing attorney, not me.

    Anyway, that ought to just about cover this subject. Sun's commin up and I gotta go fishin.

    Later, y'all!

  3. #73
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    Default Re: mourning dove?

    gigmaster,

    I was arguing the transfer of the feathers. After reading the part of the law he was referencing I still couldn't make a definate decission. So, I asked the US fish and wildlife service and they answered my question. I don't know all the laws and precedents from cases, nor do I care to spend anymore time on the subject. Like you said, go talk to an attorney. All I know now is that under this law you can transfer the feathers to another person as long as you took the bird legally, the whole bird is intact and it is a "fresh" kill. But local regulations that are more restrictive may still remain and then they are to take precedent over the national or international law. Either way, lets just go fishin'.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: mourning dove?

    Yeah..I'm with you! The fish are waitin....

    Semper Fi!

  5. #75

    Default Re: mourning dove?

    After all that, I would say Skues had the right of it, forget the pigeons' feathers and just eat them.
    Tight lines.
    Donald Nicolson (Scotland)

    http://donaldnicolson.webplus.net/

  6. #76
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    Default Re: mourning dove?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Nicolson
    After all that, I would say Skues had the right of it, forget the pigeons' feathers and just eat them.
    Tight lines.

    I agree. Sauteed pigeon (sqaub) wrapped in bacon, with smothered potatoes and onions if awful hard to beat.

    Semper Fi!

  7. #77

    Default Re: mourning dove?

    It's strange how some topics get so many views. This one already has nearly 1200...I'm guessing that's largely due to hunter-tyers and dove season. Interesting, informative posts...learned a bunch. Thanks.

    I was standing on the patio when a sizable dove hit the glass slider early today. As it glanced off the glass and "landed" just a few feet away from me, the resident hawk came by low and fast...then it saw me and did a couple fly-bys almost at my head. The dove had been fleeing the hawk when it hit. The hawk was too interested in the meal to be frightened of me. It remained on the ground no more than 15 feet in front of me, intent on getting this meal. When I could see that the dove was a gone'r, I walked away to let the hawk have his dove...still warm but without bacon.

  8. #78

    Default Re: mourning dove?

    Source; Mark Trail Comic Strip.

    Doves are prolific breeders and may raise up to 6 broods in a season...This is essential, for their mortality is high- about 58% for Adults and 69% for young

    Approximately 50 million Doves are killed by hunters each year.

    Doves are devoted Parents and both feed the Squabs with pigeon's milk (Dove's Milk) for the first few days of their life.

    You would think that with so many Doves killed each year the population would be in trouble, but good game management has kept the species doing well.

    Doug
    Enjoying the joys of others and suffering with them- these are the best guides for man. A.E.

  9. #79

    Default Re: mourning dove?

    I disagree with that last statement of yours Doug.
    It seems to me that high dove population is due to the highly sexed dove parents, I mean, six broods a year?

    Are the Game Managers feeding them Viagra pellets or something??
    Donald Nicolson (Scotland)

    http://donaldnicolson.webplus.net/

  10. #80

    Default Re: mourning dove?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Nicolson
    I disagree with that last statement of yours Doug.
    It seems to me that high dove population is due to the highly sexed dove parents, I mean, six broods a year?

    Are the Game Managers feeding them Viagra pellets or something??
    Donald,
    Apparently Doves have thrown caution to the wind, since 50% of them get blasted out of the sky!
    Doug
    Enjoying the joys of others and suffering with them- these are the best guides for man. A.E.

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