Bear encounters

[Flyrodde]

I agree with Cea. F&G can not, and should not be expected to protect people from wildlife. They are there to do the opposite. It is a shame that bears are killed by getting too close to humans. It isn't the bears fault. People have a choice at where they go and where they live. Wildlife does not. Humans have to remember that when they step foot in another predators domain, they have to follow the rule of nature. People have the ablility to reason, think things out and plan. Wildlife has instinct. That bear knew 2 things. It was hungry, and there was something to eat close to it. It ate.

This was a tragic event for that family. But nature isn't always fair. It doesn't have a heart, or shed tears. If you assume you are safe, you aren't. People shouldn't need signs to tell them that bears could be around. If you are in a forest bears can be around. Just remember that wildlife doesn't need us, but we sure need it.

[Fly Goddess]

Flyrodde, as I have stated before, there has NEVER been any BEARS in this area. The family did however put their food in the car. The young man bought a modular tent for Father's Day and was excited about having his own room.
The latest reports here on it is, the family is very upset that they were NOT enformed about the bear (NO POSTING and NO NEWS)
The F&G had reports of a trouble making bear and went out to look Sunday day with the idea of setting traps Sunday evening. The F&G then stated they had no idea anyone would stay Sunday Night.
In other words, this family had NO IDEA of a BEAR anywhere in this area, but F&G did and they knew it was a trouble maker.
I am not against F&G and I am not sure where the fault should fall, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I do know it was a wake up call all the way around. And to all you that plan for BEARs ....Right On!

[Wild One]

I grew up and lived in American Fork for 23 years and learned to fly fish in AF canyon just above Tibble Fork (the lake FG mentioned). My great, great, great uncle Martin Hansen discovered Timpanogos Cave and Middle Cave there. I used to work at Timp Cave in the summers for 3 years. I have climbed numerous rock cimbing routes in AF canyon, climbed Mt Timp several times (counted on both hands!) camped in every campground, backpacked almost every trail and fished almost every inch of the river as well as every lake you can access from AF Canyon. My Dad used to hunt there every year, and basically grew up in those mountains. I say this only to show that I and my family have spent a LOT of time there. Only one time did I ever hear of a possiblity of a bear in the canyon. It was when I was working at the cave (Snack Stand!!) and the rangers came up one morning to a mess of garbage in the patio at the trail head to Timp. cave. After a little research, it was ASSUMED that it was done by a black bear, but that was all we ever heard about it.

Fly Goddess is right on when she says that there were never any bear sightings in the area. Plenty of (just like she said) deer, elk, moose, cougars, and most kinds of small game--but not bears. Of course there are bear in several other places, including attached mountain ranges. This area should have been closed the MOMENT the first family reported their incident and anyone there should have been asked to leave or at least verbally warned that a black bear had been encountered. Because this area is not part of any of the National Monuments or National Parks, that jurisdiction falls with F&G. I agree with Fly Goddess. This death SHOULD have & COULD have been avoided.

[cea]

Wild One - I grew up in Alpine and Highland UT, so am familiar with the area also. I do not accept that just because you or a few other folks that spent some time in the area did not see any bears that there have been no bear sightings in the area. I live in Montana now where there are quite a few bears, both black and grizzlies, and I know several folks here that have not seen bears in the wild either, though they are not too hard to find if you're looking for them. Generally, they want to stay away from people unless they've been fed.
Also, just because an area is not part of a national park or monument doesn't make it fish and game jurisdiction. I would expect this area to fall under the forest service, not fish and game jurisdiction.
If the forest service, fish and game or other agency were required to shut down areas whenever there was a risk of bear, mountain lion, moose, falling tree or whatever, they may as well close the forests and people should stay at home. There are many lawsuits from various states and in the federal courts on related issues of what warnings need to be given and when, and frankly, these types of suits mostly unsuccessful for plaintiffs, end up putting barriers, fences, signs, etc. all over the place that, to me, destroy the wildness of the outdoors.
Again, there are bear warning signs in that area of the canyon warning of black bear. Your post suggests you, like others, simply ignore them because you haven't seen the bears. This tragedy is unfortunate, but so is the blame thrown around because of it.

[Fly Goddess]

Wild One - I grew up in Alpine and Highland UT, so am familiar with the area also. I do not accept that just because you or a few other folks that spent some time in the area did not see any bears that there have been no bear sightings in the area. I live in Montana now where there are quite a few bears, both black and grizzlies, and I know several folks here that have not seen bears in the wild either, though they are not too hard to find if you're looking for them. Generally, they want to stay away from people unless they've been fed.
Also, just because an area is not part of a national park or monument doesn't make it fish and game jurisdiction. I would expect this area to fall under the forest service, not fish and game jurisdiction.
If the forest service, fish and game or other agency were required to shut down areas whenever there was a risk of bear, mountain lion, moose, falling tree or whatever, they may as well close the forests and people should stay at home. There are many lawsuits from various states and in the federal courts on related issues of what warnings need to be given and when, and frankly, these types of suits mostly unsuccessful for plaintiffs, end up putting barriers, fences, signs, etc. all over the place that, to me, destroy the wildness of the outdoors.
Again, there are bear warning signs in that area of the canyon warning of black bear. Your post suggests you, like others, simply ignore them because you haven't seen the bears. This tragedy is unfortunate, but so is the blame thrown around because of it.

I am sure the BEAR SIGNS are there NOW!, but I was up there about a month ago and READ the BOARD right by the lake with the map and the usual toxins that may be found in the fish.....but NO BEAR WARNING!
At least at Strawberry the post is right on the back and or front of the bathroom door, you can't help but notice this, and yes I camp up there with that knowledge.
Sounds as if you are affilitated with the F&G and if so, I personally appriciate your input.

[cea]

Fly Goddess - I am not affilliated with the F&G of Utah or any other state, and do not agree with many things they do. However, I am familiar with several instances of persons being attacked or killed by bears, and resulting lawsuits or other claims against the governmental agencies, as well as the blame in the media that gets tossed around. My opinion of these types of allegations and claims, particularly in light of my own experience of seeing people disregard and ignore bear warnings, is reflected in my prior posts.

[Wild One]

cea, a fellow Utah County native, eh? Nice to see there are a few of us out there. Let me clarify a few things. Having spent a fair amount of time (at least once, for 10 days at a time, a year for most of life) in the Canadian Rockies (specifically around Banff or Waterton) I also have seen my fair share of Bears in the wild. I've been face to face with 3 on separate occassions. One black and 2 Grizzlies. Not trying to brag, just letting you know I'm somewhat familiar with Bear behavior as well. I'm not discrediting what you say or your experience and I 100% agree with your 2nd paragraph here:

"Also, just because an area is not part of a national park or monument doesn't make it fish and game jurisdiction. I would expect this area to fall under the forest service, not fish and game jurisdiction.
If the forest service, fish and game or other agency were required to shut down areas whenever there was a risk of bear, mountain lion, moose, falling tree or whatever, they may as well close the forests and people should stay at home. There are many lawsuits from various states and in the federal courts on related issues of what warnings need to be given and when, and frankly, these types of suits mostly unsuccessful for plaintiffs, end up putting barriers, fences, signs, etc. all over the place that, to me, destroy the wildness of the outdoors."

I wasn't suggesting that the forest service close every area with a potential for human danger. If that were the case, then as you said, "people should just stay at home." I also side with you that the more fences, signs and man-made objects that are put up in these areas take away from the reason we enjoy them.

My point is this. Had this happened in a place where bears were more prevalent, say your neck of the woods, I'll bet a more pro-active approach would have been taken to warn people in the area until this bear was caught and moved elsewhere or otherwise taken care of. Places where bear sightings and encounters are more common would have been more prepared to deal with a bear that was clearly unafraid of people, unlike you have indicated here that " Generally, they want to stay away from people..." This particular bear was clearly driven by some uncommon factor in order to mess with those they generally fear (humans) not once, but twice.

So, does the fact that the DWR or Forest Service (or whichever agency responsible) not typically deal with this, alleviate some responsibilty? I say no way! Now, understand that if this were my kid I would not file any type of suit against the Forest Service, but it would make me feel better (towards them) if I'd been warned, ignored that warning and it happened anyway. It would have been incredibly easy to post a big sign at the two entrance stations to the canyon and instruct the folks working those stations to notify and warn the canyon visitors that a recent black bear encounter had taken place in this specific area. I have also read where the DWR did have reps stationed at the campsite where the bear first attacked until 5 pm sunday. Obviously the biologist stationed there could have posted a sign when he left.

cea, I am curious who would you blame? The first family for not making a bigger deal out of it? The 11 yr old boy or his family for camping in a beautiful place? Or perhaps this doesn't really require blame. Maybe it should just be labled as "an unfortunate incident that we should all learn from." Please understand that this is being said with all due respect and in no way is this intended to belittle you. I am simply curious as to your point of view.

I don't think that this experience should be used to badger any specific agency. We should, however, learn from it and hopefully the UDWR, Forest Service, F&G and definately citizens should be on the look out.

[cea]

Wild One - to answer your question to me, I would not blame anyone. My opinion is among those suggested by you -- that it is an unfortunate incident not requiring blame that folks should learn from.
Incidentally, I noted in today's Salt Lake Tribune an article about folks camping at the same campground and in the vicinity of this campground in the past couple of days since this bear incident. One lady had her two Yorkie terriers standing guard and an aluminum bat to protect from any more bears in the area -- both ineffective safeguards in bear country, if anything those yorkies will encourage a bear encounter.
I also read about another campground near Payson being closed because of a bear in the area.

[Gigmaster]

Trying to say they were not aware of bears is typical of modern day thinking. Have to blame someone so that they don't have to accept responsibility.

If your in the woods, here is a heads up for you....BEARS LIVE IN THE WOODS, everywhere. Anytime you go in the woods, you run the risk of confronting any number of large predators and possibly rabid animals.

You are responsible for you're own safety in the woods, as well as anywhere else. Going into the woods without a sidearm is not smart. I don't leave my house without one.
I don't know if it would've helped in this situation or not, and we will never know. But your better off having one and not needing it, than the other way around.

There is more to the story than what is being reported. Bears,not even Grizzlies, just attack people out of the blue. We are not on thier menu. The bear was either provoked, unwittingly or not, or something happened so that it lost its natural fear of humans, ie: being fed regulalry, trash,...etc..so that it associated people with food.

Anyway, for all the wannabe Daniel Boones out there.....when you go into the woods, hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

Semper Fly

[Fly Goddess]

Gigmaster (QUOTE) Trying to say they were not aware of bears is typical of modern day thinking. Have to blame someone so that they don't have to accept responsibility.

I found this site. Mind you we are aware of Bears in Utah, specially at Strawberry as I mentioned and they are well posted.
Maybe this page will help: http://news.google.com/news?q=Black+Bea ... 1&ct=title