Pattern Rip-Off or Not?

[RonMT]

FlyMaker2- While I have done tying at show's at both of those shows I was doing slide show's on the spring creek fishing here and the one in Oregon I was doing casting demo's showing the Double Haul. I was also doing promo's for several different company's product's. I use to do a lot more than just tie flies. I had rod's and reels that I used while casting Same with other things like my clothing. They furnished the rods, reels, lines and so on so there products could be in front of the consumer.

Like I said Jim seemed like a nice person. As for the shop's not carrying his flies here it has nothing to do with what he makes on the fly or if it has a patten but if they feel it will work. Most of these shops buy flies from several different companys and I am sure they would buy his flies if they thought they would be a good here. Again not saying it dosen't work here. They buy what works that is how they make money.
I tie for two shops here and all pattern's but one are my own. They work so the shop's buy them from me. I worked these pattern's out over many years of guiding these river's and spring creeks.
As for me tying Jim's flies. I am sure that my retail customers would never say a word if I tied those flies for them. And I am sure other tiers do tie his flies for there own use and for client's. Just to hard to protect a patten like that.

I know that his flies work for Salmon and other fish in ALaska and on great lakes fish. But those fish are not for the most part picky like others are. (Been there and done that.) If you get a fly in front of them and they are ready to take it they do not care what it is. One day one color will work another day another color will do well.
Much different from matching a hatch like we we do here. It is just a fact that in some areas of this country his flies do not produce as well as other's do. That is why they are not in the local shops. If his flies worked well here I would bet you a lot of money that the local shops would have them in stock no matter the cost.

I can't tell you the number of flies I have tied at show's and given people. I have never turned anyone down if they asked for a fly I was tying. I have even let them use my vise and helped them with many different things that they had problems with. That is part of doing shows. If you are not doing things like that the companys that pay you will not hire you again. It is in fact good for businees.
Just like Jim did for you. Now you think well of him and his business. See it works LOL and Jim know's it to. He also respects his customers that is another reason he will do it.
A very good friend that own's The Fly Fishers in Milwaukee Wisconsin, Pat Ehlers, he likes Jim a lot and if he likes Jim he must be a good guy. I like Pat and did a two day tying show each year for over 15 years for him up until I became disabled and can not talk the way I use to. Other wise I would still be doing those shows. Good Tying. Ron

[Jim Slattery]

Adso4,
There was a series of phone conversations starting from the guide who guided the 2 gentlemen I originally sold the flies to, to the final aforementioned conversation. There was at least a cast 4 different people in the conversations.
As for the fly being compared to the Improved Sofa Pillow, I totally agree they are very similar. At the time I tied the fly I had no real knowledge of the ISP. When I was told about the ISP I knew that there was a degree of difference between the 2 flies. The difference being the thorax being dubbed, a different color than the body and the thorax hackle being tied palmer style, in non touching turns, allowing the thorax profile and color to be seen. Also it was tied on a curved shank hook giving it a ovidepositing look. The hooks I used were 6x streamer hooks that were hand bent.
I originally called the it the fluttering stone fly when they made there treck out west, but that had allready been taken. After finding out about the ISP it was named very breifly the Improved Improved Sofa Pillow.

[William Fitzgerald]

Flymaker2 you are one of the spectators that I meet now and then while tying at a show-----I have to agree with RonM. There are those that want to learn and those that think they are better tyers than the one they are watching. Ask a question and I'll stop what I'm tying and help. I've tied with Poul Jorgensen sitting next to me and he did the same thing. Sat with Clouser Teeny and Helms. W'ere there to demonstrate anything you would like to see and "teach."

FlyMaker2,

In my limited experience going to shows as a paying customer and as a demonstrating tier, I have found the great majority of tiers who demonstrate do so to help the visitors. You wrote that demo tiers tie simple flies. While that may be true, the reason may be that the spectators can see the fly evolve quickly, see how basic techniques can be efficiently done and see the fly completed. I was at a show and the tier at the adjoining table spent 3 days tying one(1) full dressed A.S. fly. He completed about 1/2 of the fly. Sure he showed people certain techniques along the progression but no one ever saw the completed fly.

It's also interesting that you talk about the right to be paid for intellectual property and yet you rip tiers for not sharing their 'special' or 'secret' techniques while demonstrating at shows.

This thread went a little off course than I thought it would but let me say this about 'patented' flies or flies named by someone with their own name (not by someone else). I have absolutely no idea how financially lucrative it is or isn't so it must take a certain amount of EGO. I'll leave it at that before I write something that I'll regret.

Allan

[Bear742]

It seems fishing lures in general are hard to patent. As a result, some lure makers copyright the name instead of patenting the design. The hassle of pursuing patent rights is well known.

In regards to the question of "Whose pattern", the following shows that even fathers and sons cannot agree.

Most know about the McNally Magnum, Tom McNally's creation. A while ago I came across the McNally Snake, a fly that Bob McNally claims to have inverted. In Bob's words, it is the same as the Magnum except that the wing hackles are tied curving inward rather than flaring outward Magnum style. That created a warm "father and son" image in my mind for a while. But, shortly after hearing about the Snake, I came across one of Tom's statements about the Magnum which says that the saddle hackles of the wings can be tied "curving inward or outward." Was he in effect saying, I invented the Snake, not Bob?

Tom has gone to a place above those concerns; and Bob is not pressing to call it Bob McNally's Snake. So the advice to let it go, frequently given here, seems to be right on

[flymaker2]

FlyMaker2,

It's also interesting that you talk about the right to be paid for intellectual property and yet you rip tiers for not sharing their 'special' or 'secret' techniques while demonstrating at shows. Allan

I go to shows to lean. Hopefully. Sometimes going can be a waste of time and money. Note that I carefully worded my above rant and have not said "all demo Tyers included". Heck-I have paid decent money to attend A.K.Best & Ed Engle tying classes at the shows. Worth every penny. I guess I'm just a little tired of the "Hey Look I am a Character behind this counter with a vise and will show you a quick fly" routine. Especially when I know the tyer has more chops than they demo. Guarding the nest I guess there are..

Also-The fly shows in my neck of the woods are frought with regional tyers; some of whom I am sure I equal in skill. But yet each tyer has a few good tricks and the demo tyers that do share are very much appreciated by me. The fly fishing show circuit is show business through and through and is far removed from the sport of fly fishing -IMO. I guess I need to recognize it for wht it is: Showbiz and Hoopla and Glitz and Marketing . some pikers and even some flim flam to boot!

If you started a new thread on Demo Tying, I'd read it

Respectfully,

Out
Rich

[Gigmaster]

Sounds like a Griffiths Gnat to me. That's how I tie them, anyway.

One persons bug is anothers gnat. A rose by any other name....still has aphids.

Semper Fi!

[EdD]

Gigmaster, what size do you tye those aphids?

[Gigmaster]

I've never tried, but I guess an aphid would be pretty small, say around a size 22 or less. It could be done. I don't know if a fish would take it, but they eat other terrestrials. It'd at least work for bluegills. They hit anything!

I may give it a try, just as an intellectual exercise, if nothing else.

Semper Fi!