'Traditional' Wet Flies

[Jim Slattery]

Mantis,
I understand where you are coming from. The facts that I have gathered have come mainly from the Hidy family. Hardly second hand or book from a book, so to speak. My interest of Leisenring is long standing, and has sent me on a fact finding mission. In turn I have come to appreciate the body of work that "Pete" Hidy has left behind, a true scholar of the sport who had a agile mind. To much disinformation being bandied about. We all know the story of Gordon and to an extent Norris. Leisenring is very cloudy and kind of tucked away in a corner. His fly tying and fly fishing theories were spot on and well thought out, timeless. The man himself a mystery. Not much to work with. I do like to share the knowledge I have obtained to clarify some of the misinformation about the man and his techniques. His dubbing technique is misunderstood by many. I also don't like people taking pot shots at people who are unable to defend themselves.
I do sell materials on ebay, if that is what you are referring to.
I have been invited to tie at the Catskill Fly Fishing Center Aug 20th. I will be tying with Mary Dette, Larry Solomon and a few others. It should be a blast. Perhaps I will see you there. You tie a mean fly.
Take care,
Jim

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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:4469b]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:4469b] [url=http://www.flymph.com:4469b]www.flymph.com[/url:4469b]

[mantis]

Jim, I will mark that date down and will enjoy meeting you there. I saw Mary and Larry at Mary's induction into the CFFM Hall of Fame. Larry has had some health issues and is an old friend. First met him during the early T G FF days and through his friendship with Bob Boyle. Mary's husband Gene has had a rough go of it healthwise lately. Yet, I have never seen the man without a smile on his face. The Dette Legend continues as her grandson Joe Fox (Ashbourne on FAOL) continues the family tradition. He is an extremely knowledgeable young man and, as you would expect considering his herritage, an excellent fly tyer. I bet you will meet him too when you tie at the museum.
You are right about Pete Hidy. For some reason he has always been thought of as being given a free ride on JL's coat tails.
Sounds like with all the research you have done it would make a great article.

[Royal Wulff]

Hey Slattery, RW here

Define the word potshots. The man is dead, so from the scrutiny of a historical standpoint, I can take all the "potshots" (your word) at him I want when I clearly state it is my opinion. I, too, am a student of fly fishing history, but I can also read between the lines and form opinions, which generally are what most of the threads on FAOL are all about anyway, regardless of the subject. And you know what they say about opinions. Sorry if my opinion doesn't agree with your opinion, and I'm doubly sorry that you're offended, but hey, that's just the way it is. You don't know me from Adam's off ox so you don't know from where, how and why I form my opinions. Likewise, I can't seem to place you so I guess that makes us even. So how bout you don't judge me cuz I have no intention of judging you. And as far as Leisenring and Hidy go, that's my story and I'm st..sti..stickin to it. Oh, and by the way, I fish wets 90 percent of the time, and if you think I'm not a fan of Leisenring, read my profile line. Besides fishing, that quote goes for historical perspective too.

Later, RW

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"We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours." -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-


[This message has been edited by Royal Wulff (edited 16 January 2006).]

[Jim Slattery]

.....RW, Slattery here,
I still don't understand your ragin towards Pete Hidy, the man did more than most to enlighten fly fishing. We all have our follies, but you seem to have a certain glee in rubbing Mr. Hidy's in his. It is unbecoming from a fellow author and sounds abit like the green head of jealousy rising. Do you denigrate Halford for carrying on and making a name for himself by using, the lessons taught to him by Marryatt? You are right, this board is about exchanging ideas and in turn opinions. But Flaming people is frowned upon, last time I checked. Certainly dead people that have done much in their lives to educate and promote fly fishing should be included. Your opinion of Hidy comes off derogatory. As I said in my original post I know that you are an admirer of Leisenring but now I'm unsure of Hidy. Just as you can make form opinions and make judgements so can I, from a non writers perspective. My views are not skewed by what seems to be professional envy. Though I am prone myself to it from time to time, I do not air my opinions in a public forum, that would make me look unprofessional and petty.

[Royal Wulff]

Slattery, RW again

What, pray tell, is your problem? I made a simple observation based on my opinion and now you say I'm raging against the man and I don't like him? And I'm jealous?...of Vernon Hidy? What have I got to be jealous about? He was probably a great guy from a personal aspect.

You are kidding right? Yeah, that's it, your kidding. Seems like you're the one that's comin on strong about this, and making it personal to boot. It's my opinion pure and simple. Why don't "you" just live with it and "your" opinion, and quit raging against "me" and my opinion. Futhermore, why don't you just abide by the advice you gave me in your last sentence.

Later, RW



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"We fish for pleasure; I for mine, you for yours." -James Leisenring on fishing the wet fly-

[Jim Slattery]

RW,
I am, as you are , making an observation and forming an opinion. Sorry you took it personally. Fortunately you are alive to voice your displeasure with it.
Generally I enjoy reading your posts on this board, you seem like a well read man.I guess Pete Hidy is something we will continue to disagree about.
Have a great day,
Jim

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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:3e023]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:3e023] [url=http://www.flymph.com:3e023]www.flymph.com[/url:3e023]

[mantis]

Let me propose a theory as to why Pete Hidy has not gotten fame he may well deserve. I don't have my hand on any books concerning this and I admit to not knowing as much about Pa. tyers and history as I do NY although things do get intertwined. Jim L. passed away when? Very late 40's or very early 50s. From what I recall when Jim and Pete met Jim was the 'older and established' fly tyer and fly fisherman. Pete was a young man, maybe around his mid 20s? It only seems natural that Pete did not know anywhere as much about fly tying or fly fishing as Jim did.. Did Pete seek out Jim? Was it because he wanted to learn more about what he had heard about Jim FF and FT wise? Who really knows the truth. It is apparent from what I recall that they became friends and I would guess perhaps as in many cases there was a bit of idolizing on Pete's part. I would guess others had suggested that Jim put his knowledge in a book. I think Pete probably pushed him to do it too. Sometimes people are almost too humble and need to be pushed into things like writing a book... I do not recall how much education Jim had. I'm pretty sure Pete had at least some college.
Sorry, but I haven't read any of these books in probably 30 years so memory may have faded a bit. Did Pete "interview" Jim and actually physically write the book? Or did he just push Jim into writing it. Was anything with in the book anything but Jims? Just when did Pete begin making contributions as far as designing flies himself or was most of it in later books simply still takes on Jims stuff. I will say this. Regardless of the previous mentioned items I think we all owe Pete a big thank you for pushing Jim or it may not have been done at all. At some point Tyers who admire and emulate other tyers styles and flies start to experiment on their own. I do not recall Pete "Not" giving credit to Jim which is something you rarely see these days.
Then, Pete keeps it all alive by continuing on the tradition, perhaps making some improvements. Tyers learn from tyers.Then they carry it on.
As I said in the beginning this is just a possible theory. We would have had to have been there to know the whole truth.
I'm afraid any later day comments by friends and relatives would be colored perhaps a bit. Time creates legends.
It is easy to see how both sides of this argument came about.
Arguments of Kelson, or Slaymaker being vastly overated are much more easily defended.

[This message has been edited by mantis (edited 16 January 2006).]

[eaustin]

Is not the Partridge and Orange a traditional wet fly? No wings at all. How about the Queen of the Waters? And please don't tell me the Grizzly King is not traditional. Flank feathers on both of those. Somebody didn't do their homework.
Eric

Okay everyone. Let's put this baby to rest.

The point of my initial post was to simply point out that all 'traditional' wet flies need not have wings made of quills or slips from flank feathers. There are other 'traditional' wet flies that have other types or none at all.

The person hosting the swap, and the posts in that thread, which led to my post wanted a swap that specified quill winged wets. Perhaps the host might have phrased it differently to convey what he wanted. For example: 'Traditional wet flies in which quill wings were used' or 'Wet fly patterns created prior to (fill in the year) that used quill slips for wings'.

The choice of a swap theme is certainly up to the host. He/she can specify whatever type of fly that's to be submitted. We always have a choice of electing to participate or not, for whatever reason.

That should end this thread.

Allan

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 17 January 2006).]