Well the other day I was in Bass pro and noticed they had some half skins. I bought the best one for 13 bucks and it is definitely better than the loose hackle. I am sure a better grade of skin would be even better! I am looking into the JV hen and the quail intrigues me as well. The big problem is getting hackle for 16 and 18 sizes. But then again, once I have them I have to hackle the fly and that in it's self is a challenge.