Selecting a Reel for a New Rod - Balancing

[Hackler]

Just picked up a St. Croix 9' Legend Elite 5 weight and I am trying to match a reel to it. This rod is quite light at 2.8 oz so I had assumed that it would​ match up with a very light reel. Not so fast.


I have read a number of articles on balancing rod and reel and it seems that the consensus is the rod should balance (be horizontal) at the fulcrum where your index (and some say middle) finger is placed on the grip during a casting stroke. An article suggests that a loaded reel should generally weigh 1.5X the swing weight of the rod. According to it, the swing weight equals the weight of the rod (2.8 oz.) plus maybe 0.2 oz for twice the rod length in line out of the tip. Therefore, according to this article, the loaded reel should weight about 3.0 oz X 1.5 = 4.5 oz.
http://www.flyfishohio.com/a_question_of_balance.htm


Yet I am puzzled by "swing weight." According to Yellowstone Anglers, and their 2013 5 weight shootout results, this rod (and many more) has a swing weight of nearly 9 oz.! Hmmm.
http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gea...os-2-greys-xf2


So I tried each of three different loaded reels on it (6 oz, 7.0 oz and 7.7 oz) with about 18 feet of line extending for each out of the tip. Under these conditions, the reel that balanced the rod at my index finger was the heaviest one at 7.7 oz. loaded (Colton CRG II for 5,6,7 - very pleased with this reel BTW). The two lighter reels were too light as they caused the tip to dip. I was surprised by this result as I assumed I would be needing to pick up a Lamson Litespeed or some other feather weight reel. Am I doing this right?

[pillcaster]

I have that rod in a 4wt, and I think it balances better with a heavier reel. I have a ross flyrise 2 and a SA GPX line on it and I think it balances it perfectly for the way I fish.

There has been many discussions on the board about balance. Some have said lighter is better, some say balance is important.

The fly fish ohio article, i believe, says to balance with 9 feet of line out of the tip for best casting. Of course, you can balance the rod with any amount of line out of the tip, as soon as you add or decrease line the rig will no longer be in balance. The best way to decide is to cast the rig on the water, you will soon see at your normal fishing distances if the rig feels light and easy to cast or if you feel it needs more or less weight. You can always add a few feet of lead core line, as the article suggests to add weight.

I have found many of the ultra light reels to be too light for my taste. Just my two cents, YMMV.

[WarrenP]

Hackler,

Pillcaster has given you good advise. I feel any reel from 4.5 to 5.0 ounces will give you the best results. Just remember that with every foot of line out the tip will change the "balance" so do not put too much thought on what you read. Experiment on the water while fishing and that will give you the best results. It is now time to stop reading different articles on this subject and go fish the rod and reel and determine from that which reel "feels balanced" the best and go with it. Everyone has different casting strokes and you need to find out what feels the most comfortable for you and go with it. Let everyone else do their thing and you do your thing and just enjoy the rod and the fishing.

[Preston Singletary]

Thanks WarrenP for offering a little common sense. It has always baffled me that anyone would think that establishing a static balance point in the highly dynamic system of coordinated movements, accelerations and decelerations, that constitutes even the simplest of casts, would be of any benefit whatsoever

[rockthief]

Look at your reel stash, pick two or three, put them on the rod and see which one feels best. It's my less scientific means of deciding and it works for me.

[Silver Creek]

Just picked up a St. Croix 9' Legend Elite 5 weight and I am trying to match a reel to it. This rod is quite light at 2.8 oz so I had assumed that it wouldmatch up with a very light reel. Not so fast.

I have read a number of articles on balancing rod and reel and it seems that the consensus is the rod should balance (be horizontal) at the fulcrum where your index (and some say middle) finger is placed on the grip during a casting stroke. An article suggests that a loaded reel should generally weigh 1.5X the swing weight of the rod. According to it, the swing weight equals the weight of the rod (2.8 oz.) plus maybe 0.2 oz for twice the rod length in line out of the tip. Therefore, according to this article, the loaded reel should weight about 3.0 oz X 1.5 = 4.5 oz.

http://www.flyfishohio.com/a_question_of_balance.htm


Yet I am puzzled by "swing weight." According to Yellowstone Anglers, and their 2013 5 weight shootout results, this rod (and many more) has a swing weight of nearly 9 oz.! Hmmm.
http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gea...os-2-greys-xf2


So I tried each of three different loaded reels on it (6 oz, 7.0 oz and 7.7 oz) with about 18 feet of line extending for each out of the tip. Under these conditions, the reel that balanced the rod at my index finger was the heaviest one at 7.7 oz. loaded (Colton CRG II for 5,6,7 - very pleased with this reel BTW). The two lighter reels were too light as they caused the tip to dip. I was surprised by this result as I assumed I would be needing to pick up a Lamson Litespeed or some other feather weight reel. Am I doing this right?

My reply is in 3 parts: Part 1

You right in being confused. There is so much BS about ?rod balance? that it continues to this day.

But first let me address swing weight because it partially addresses what is actually being discussed in the article below that supposedly addressed rod balance:

http://www.flyfishohio.com/a_question_of_balance.htm

The Yellowstone Angler defines "swing weight" in the quote below:

Swing Weight 20 points available

You have heard this term if you are a golfer. Every pro shop has a simple scale that measures swing weight, the weight of the head of the club in relation to the shaft when you waggle the club. Since a scale like this won't work with a fly rod, we had to come up with a better way to measure swing weight, that weight you feel out ahead of your hand when you hold the rod in a horizontal position. The best way that we have found to measure this is by placing a foam fulcrum in the middle of our scale, position the handle of the rod so that the fulcrum sits slightly forward of the middle of the handle, then position the rod horizontally, put some finger pressure on the very butt of the rod to hold it level and read off the weight in ounces.

Rods with a low swing weight are a joy to use and fish all day. False casting while fishing dry flies all day becomes effortless. Rods with lower swing weights help protect light tippets too, as there is less inertia to overcome as the rod tip gets jerked around while you try to set the hook. Rods with a high swing weight are not nearly as pleasant to fish, and will extract their payment in arm pump and fatigue by the end of the day.

This year we gave swing weight 20 points rather than 10 as this is really a performance category and has a huge bearing on how well the rod feels in your hand and how it performs.

http://www.yellowstoneangler.com/gea...os-2-greys-xf2

Swing weight is actually a dynamic measurement. Swing Weight = moment of Inertia.

A larger moment of inertia around a given axis requires more torque to increase the rotation, or to stop the rotation, of a body about that axis. Moment of inertia depends on the amount and distribution of its mass, and can be found through the sum of moments of inertia of the masses making up the whole object, under the same condition. When a body is rotating around an axis, a torque must be applied to change its angular momentum. The amount of torque needed for any given change in angular momentum is proportional to the size of that change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia

In very simple terms it is the momentum of the rod as it moves through the casting arc. When we cast a rod, we move it through a casting arc, and we apply torque which is the rotational force we use to move that fly rod through the casting arc. So swing weight is the simple way of expressing the amount of force or energy that we need to use to cast the fly rod. The greater the swing weight, the harder the rod is to cast. It is both the energy (torque) we use to both MOVE the rod and to STOP the rod for each back cast and forward cast.

The Yellowstone Angler uses a static measurement, the static mass distribution along the rod shaft - "that weight you feel out ahead of your hand when you hold the rod in a horizontal position" as a proxy for swing weight (moment of inertia). Realize that this is done WITHOUT the reel and is ONLY the contribution of the the ROD to the Moment of Inertia. However, moment of inertia during casting includes the reel and line. The greater the combined mass of the rod/reel//line that is being rotated through the casting stroke, the greater the Swing Weight = Moment of Inertia.

Although swing weight is Moment of Inertia , what the Yellowstone Angler described is a "Static" moment which is inertia, which is due to mass, which is felt as weight due to gravity. The rotational velocity component is missing in static momentum, but since the value of rotational momentum varies with the speed and axis of rotation; if two rods have the same rotational speed and axis of rotation, the rod with the higher static inertia distribution along the rod shaft will have the higher rotational momentum. So with an apples to apples comparison, we can compare the "that weight you feel out ahead of your hand when you hold the rod in a horizontal position? between two rods of the same length to get an idea of swing weight as we cast those rods.

There is a precedent for this type of comparison. Consider the Common Cents System that uses a static metric to estimate the line rating of a fly rod. The more "cents" it takes, the higher the line rating.

The Yellowstone Angler's definition is an attempt to use a static measurement to estimate what the comparative moments of inertia would be between two rods of the same length at the same rotation velocity.

Part 2 & 3 Address rod balance and fly casting

[Silver Creek]

Reply Part 2:

Now lets move on to rod/reel balance. I quote the http://www.flyfishohio.com/a_question_of_balance.htm

"Bad balance made casting this stick a chore and limited my best distance to something under 60 feet. Changing the physical balance turned my sow's ear into something much closer to the silk purse I'd hoped for."

This is a fallacy that keeps getting repeated. That you need the reel to balance the rod during fly casting. He goes on to write,

"Now let's assume the St. Croix rod and a premium line roasted your budget so you opted for a Pflueger Medalist 1494 instead. This is a great choice. That reel weighs 5.4 ounces. Now your loaded rig is just a bit lighter than the swing weight of the rod. Such a small discrepancy isn't the end of the world, but it can make the Avid feel just a bit clunky in the hand. If you add one or two tenths of an ounce to the reel you can return it to that quick, responsive feel. This is easy to do - simply remove the line and backing and wind on 30 feet of 28 pound test lead core trolling line around the spool and then put the backing and line back on."

First of all swing weight is NOT the overall weight of the fly rod so adding the mass of a reel CANNOT decrease swing weight. Any reel has mass and any mass added to the the rod as it rotates through the cast INCREASES the swing weight. You CANNOT DECREASE the Moment of Inertia by ADDING a mass which INCREASES INERTIA.

Rod balance is important in fishing and not in casting.

That is why a French nymphing DVD says to balance the outfit with a heavy reel. This results in an outfit that is tip-light/butt-heavy when the line/leader system is out. You don't need to force a tip heavy rod/reel into a tip up position for fishing.

The outfit may be heavier over all, but you are not fighting the natural balance of the rod/reel to keep it tip up during fishing.

The rod/reel/line should be balanced for the type of fishing you do with the amount of line you would normally have out. If you mainly fish streamers from a boat as musky fly fishers do in the USA, you want a tip heavy set up.

If you keep your rod level most of the time or do all kinds of fishing so the rod angle varies, you want a neutral balance point withe the nominal amount of line out of the rod tip.

One can also adjust the static balance point by holding the rod higher or lower on the rod grip once the cast has been made to account for the amount of fly line out.

Whenever the question of rod and reel "balance" is raised, there are those who will maintain that the reel balances the rod during the cast. This is a carry over from spin and casting rods and reels where the line weighs virtually nothing AND the cast is always made when the line has been wound all the way in. So in spin and casting rods a reels the amount of line and the weight of the combined line and reel is fixed. Regardless of the length of the cast, the rod and reel has a fixed balance point.

This is not so with fly casting. The amount of line varies during the cast and the length of line that is cast will vary from cast to cast. In addition, when we pick up line and recast , we do not start with all the line back on the reel. Indeed, it is advantageous to begin with some line out of the rod tip. So the balance point is not fixed but varies throughout the cast.

Secondly, there is the mistaken belief that a "balanced" fly casting outfit will somehow allow us to cast further and more effectively. This is not true. In reality, a rod without a reel with the line lying loosely on the ground is the most efficient way to cast. The reason is that the reel and line held on the reel contribute nothing to the cast. They actually hinder the cast by adding mass to the casting system that has to be accelerated and decelerated during the cast. Remember that the laws of physics state that any extra mass added to the rod/reel/line system INCREASES the Moment of Inertia and increases the amount of energy (torque) that is required to cast the line a given distance.

If the cast were made like a teeter totter with a pivoting of rod at the balance point, I can see the need for the counter weight of the reel. But that is not how a cast is made. The power stroke of the cast is made with the wrist locked and not with the rod pivoting like a windshield wiper.

Part 3 to follow

[Silver Creek]

Reply Part 3

Charles Ritz was a champion fly caster. He invented the parabolic fly rod; and the high line, high speed casting style that is the basis for modern fly casting. He is in the IGFA Fishing Hall of fame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8n5Yh2djnw

He wrote in A Fly Fisher's Life (1959) about the false concept of rod balance:

Fly Angler's OnLine "Bamboo Rods Part 29"

"Before describing my methods of examining rods, here are a few considerations I believe to be of importance.

Let us first rid ourselves of a widespread idea, which I have often had occasion to point out as false or, at least, much exaggerated: the reel does not balance the rod; though in the past when rods were ten feet or more, very long and heavy, a reel as a counterweight did produce the illusion of balancing the rod in the hand; but it is the line which plays the principal role owing to its weight and the shape of its taper. It is, indeed, on the line that the rod depends above all for giving its maximum, and yet retaining its balance. The ideal would be to be able to fish with the reel in your pocket."

Vincent C. Marinaro wrote the following about rod balance, "In the Ring of the Rise," Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, copyright 1976, pp. 39-41.

"BALANCING A FLY ROD

In 1889 R. C. Leonard, a tournament caster, stepped to the platform without a reel on his rod and simply coiled the line at his feet. With that abbreviated rig he proceeded to smash all existing distance records, including his own, by a wide margin. It was a shocking thing to competitors and spectators alike. It was a momentous discovery from which not only tournament casters but fishermen as well should have profited. That early-day pioneer discovered an extremely important principle in rod dynamics. It amounts to this: That the caster must move the useless weight below the hand as well as the useful weight above the hand; that the removal of dead weight below the hand helped to overcome inertia more quickly, increasing the tip speed, thus imparting a greater velocity to the projectile or fly line. It should have been a valuable lesson to everyone, but it wasn?t. It remained only among the tournament casters for many years.

If you examine the books and catalogs of those early days you will discover that manufacturers and fishermen-writers discussed very learnedly and extensively such things as "fulcrum point," "counterpoise," "balancing the fly rod," and "letting the rod do the work," none of which has any merit whatsoever. Not until very recently has there been an awareness of this valid principle. It is evidenced by the availability of numerous fine, very lightweight reels on the market today. In view of this trend I should not be discussing this subject at all, except for the fact that I am frequently surprised by the comments of writers and the recommendations of suppliers or manufacturers prescribing a specific size and weight of reel to balance a particular rod. There can be no such thing as balance in a fly rod. There can never be a fixed "fulcrum point." Every inch that the cast is lengthened or shortened changes the alleged balance and every unnecessary ounce in an unnecessarily heavy reel dampens and degrades the cast. If you wish to explore this a little further, you can try an experiment as I did some years ago. If you have or can borrow enough reels, let us say in two-ounce increments, all the way from the lightest, about two ounces, to something about eight or nine ounces, you will have enough to make the experiment. Use the same weight of line on the same rod for all trials. With the lightest reels the casts are sharply and cleanly delivered flat out with enough velocity to turn over the leaders. You also get a tighter front bow if you want it. As the reels get heavier there is a noticeable lagging in the forward loop until finally with the heaviest reel there is decided dropping of the loop, and probably a failure to turn over the leader properly. This effect is most pronounced on long casts. And consider how much worse it could be with those reels that were manufactured with a hollow arbor into which the purchaser was urged to pour lead pellets through a little trapdoor in order to correct the balance of his fly rod!

You can suit yourself about these matters but for me there is only one sound system and that is: Use the lightest possible reel of good quality and adequate capacity no matter how long or heavy the rod may be . . . ."

As both Ritz and Marinaro state, if you remove the reel and place it on the ground and cast just with the rod and line, it is much easier to cast. I have done that and I agree with Ritz and Marinaro, the reel is not needed to balance the rod for casting. The feel of the cast is actually the line causing the rod to bend. It is the moving line outside the rod that "balances" or provides the dynamic resistance that causes the rod to bend.

I realize that there will be those that will not believe Charles Ritz or what I have written. You owe it to yourself to try casting with the reel on the ground as I did.

[Byron haugh]

Silver,
Thanks. I agree completely with your conclusion. When selecting a reel, I look for well made reels from several reputable companies; and then select the one which has the line capacity I need; and then choose based on the LIGHTEST AVAILABLE.

It is not by accident that reel manufacturers drill holes in the frames of their reels.........LOL.

[Buddy Sanders]

Keep it simple.

Use the lightest reel possible that will hold the line/backing you need, and that you can afford. Chasing a mythical 'balance' is a fruitless pursuit.

This is just fly fishing. An ounce or two either way won't make enough of a difference to muddle over....(remember that ALL of our gear is much lighter than it was twenty years ago...)

Buddy