Who invented the "Haystack" fly ?

[Byron haugh]

If there were a poll taken here, I would wager that 99% would respond, Fran Betters.....right?

Well, apparently that's not quite accurate.

I am a really big fan of Fran a Betters. I even have a couple of his flies and one of the vises he used.

The world of fly tying back in the 50 's through the 70's was a much smaller world. No internet....no YouTube videos....many fewer books, etc.

Anyway, I was reading the tiny little "booklet" "Comparahatch" by Caucci/Natasi...........The little black book on top of their big book "Hatches"



On pages 49/50 of the little booklet, Caucci recounts that he was fishing the Adirondack one day and had no luck at all. He stopped in at Fran Betters' fly shop and told of his non-catch day. Betters took out a "monstrous-looking fly...." and told him "Try a Haystack - if that don't bring em up, nothin' will."

Caucci then related that Fran said he had been tying the fly for almost 20 years and his father had used a crude version of it many years before that.

Caucci then says that he concluded the Haystack "....must be a pattern local to the Adirondacks as I have searched exhaustively for it in every fly-tying book and dictionary imaginable, but have drawn a complete blank as to its dressing and origin."

Thus, it may or may not have been invented by either of the Betters. Certainly, it was popularized, and presumably refined, by Fran Betters.

The point, for me, is that Caucci incorporated and refined this fly he saw at Fran's fly shop which he termed "Examination showed it (The Haystack) to be a curious, outlandish abortion." into the present day Compara-Dun which, I believe, as such or even as a Sparkle-Dun is one of the most effective dry flies ever invented.

[Allan]

Fran Betters' father.

[catskilljohn]

The story I recall from reading it somewhere was similar, but took place on stream. Apparently Fran was fishing with a small party of guys and one of the elder anglers out of desperation tied a fly [on the stream bank] with a "gob of deer hair" and they started catching fish. I cant recall from the story who initially tied the fly, it well could have been Fran's father, but it was not Fran.


If I come across the story I will put it here. CJ

[Byron haugh]

I have heard a similar story about someone being shown the fly.
In this case, I am describing, and quoting, what Al Caucci actually said in his little book about his first seeing the pattern.

And direct quotes from Fran Betters to Caucci.

[WarrenP]

Fran Betters book, "Fly Fishing - Fly Tying and Pattern Guide" Second Edition has the following information on the Haystack:

Fran writes, "The story of the Haystack begins back in the late forties when I was a lad. I lived with my mother and dad in a home about a hundred yards from the Ausable and spent much of my time there fishing. The first fly that I ever saw that reminded me of a "haystack" was probably in forty-seven or forty-eight. It was just a big gob of deer hair, tied onto a #6 or #8 hook. The fly had no body, only deer hair tied upright and slightly forward, somewhat akin to a muddler, for the hackle. It was tied by Eddie Lawrence, a hunter, trapper and fisherman of some reknown in few other fly fishing enthusiasts."

Further along in the book he states the following: " In 1949, my senior year in high school, I was fishing nearly everyday, and I also spent many hours at the fly tying desk, trying to keep up with the demand for flies which sold out of my parents home. I remember that the first Ausable Haystack fly was born at my tying desk in June of that year during the Green Drake hatch. ......... Since that time, I have tied tens of thousands of Ausable Haystacks and have been fishing them successfully ever since."

[Byron haugh]

Yes, that seems to correspond to Caucci's reference to it being local to the Adirondacks,,,,,implying it wasn't necessarily originated by either Betters.

Didn't Fran Betters convert to using Woodchuck at some point?

[catskilljohn]

implying it wasn't necessarily originated by either Betters.

Just to be clear here, your original question was "who invented the Haystack". Its pretty clear that Fran did..."I remember the first Ausable Haystack fly was born at my tying desk in June"

The fly invented by Eddie Lawrence was the catalyst to the Haystack, just as the Haystack was to the Comparadun fo Caucci. CJ

[Byron haugh]

Trying to be clear. I think I quoted Al Caucci who discussed the fly with Fran and says, in his book "Compara-Hatch": "Francis explained that he had been tying the Haystack for almost 20 years and his father had used a crude version of it many years before that."

It is interesting that he reports "....his father HAD USED a crude version...." Not "HAD TIED" as many believe that Victor Betters was the origin.

In "Founding Flies" by Mike Valla, Valla mentions that Fran's father, Victor, was a great fisherman, but was NOT a fly tier. Rather, Fran was taught and encouraged by members of the Green Drake Club including Red Wilbur, Ray Bergman, Lou Kirtzknocer, etc. In fact, Wilbur provided Fran with his first fly-tying material and encouraged him to learn fly tying.

There are obviously conflicting reports about the exact origin and whether the "Ausable Haystack Fly" was a version of a "Haystack" in use before Fran was tying in ernest.

There is not much doubt that Fran Betters popularized the fly, and I am sure he refined it. I am not yet convinced that some of the members of the Green Drake Club were not fishing a version of the fly when they took Fran in and helped him begin fly tying...

[whatfly]

Of course maybe the Caucci's quote is self-serving because then it sounds like he just "borrowed" from someone who already borrowed from another.

[Byron haugh]

How would that be self serving? Guess I don't understand. Cacciatore and Nastasi never made a claim on the Haystack. In fact, as I explained from their book on the Compara-Dun Caucci had never seen a Haystack until he stopped in at Fran's Shop. And, they both (Caucci and Nastasi) freely admit they built upon the old Haystack.

I wish I could locate it, but I did read in some book, many years ago that "as the story goes...." some Green Drake Club members gave "someone" a chunk of deer hair and said " Here, tie me a fly using only this".

Anyone else recall that old story?? Source???