A Flav Pattern on the Water

[Byron haugh]

Here is a recent Flav pattern I came up with using turkey flats (divided) for wings and a few views from below.
The first photo is from above as we might see it.





From the front, and below in the water





The wings and body disjointed.........

[AlanB]

Wow, I never realised how far refraction would displace the wing tips from the fly. Though I would have to observe that the camera isn't under water, so I'm not sure how far the displacement would be if it was. Your photo does show how it could be the wing tips that appear first in the trout's window.

Now I can see why you are looking for a slant box. One idea is to look at the perspex display boxes sold for shops. Then get a mirror cut to fit. It's something I keep meaning to do, more because I am too stingy to pay C & F prices.

Cheers,
A.

[malevo]

Byron,
what surprises me more is how deep the hackle gets into the water. Your fly is lying the abdomen flat on the water, almost in the water. Should the tip of the hackle keep the fly a bit higher? Like only touching the water the tip of the hackle and the tail with the body out of the water.
Malevo

[Steven]

Should the tip of the hackle keep the fly a bit higher? Like only touching the water the tip of the hackle and the tail with the body out of the water.

The idea that Catskill style flies are supported by the tips of the tail and collar, with the hook and body out of the water, is one of the great misconceptions in fly fishing/tying.

[malevo]

Steve, can you explain more? I remember reading Marinaro's book some years ago that the hackle would make the indentation on the water film as the legs of the real insect would do. I don't have the book here with me now but will take a look at that passage again tonight.
See the picture from Castwell work here in FAOL "flies only"

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/feat...ctionfive2.jpg

[Byron haugh]

Mal
1. "Placing " a fly on the water (as I did), is not gentle enough and I probably inadvertently forced the hackle tips through the meniscus.
2. My fly was on the water quite a while before I was able to photo it.

[Steven]

Steve, can you explain more? I remember reading Marinaro's book some years ago that the hackle would make the indentation on the water film as the legs of the real insect would do. I don't have the book here with me now but will take a look at that passage again tonight.
See the picture from Castwell work here in FAOL "flies only"

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/feat...ctionfive2.jpg

I believe Marinaro was referencing his thorax dun, not a Catskill. FWIW, I kind of doubt it on the thorax dun as well.

If you go back to the JC article, just before this picture, you'll see he writes, "Once again, you can see the hook not only very visible due to the lack of anything else, but is also reflected. Once the hackle broke through the surface this allowed the hook to penetrate as well." (emphasis mine).

If you look at the Adams in section 4, you'll see it even more clearly - a catskill fly rests on the horizontal collar hackles and fully on its tails (not the tips).

Think about these three things:

1) You remember science class? If you put a pin on the water point side down, it sunk. If you put it in horizontally, it floated on the meniscus, right? Same deal. A vertical hackle will sink. A horizontal hackle floats the fly in the meniscus.

2) In theory, I guess, you could make a hackle so dense, that it might work like the bed of nails on which an Indian fakir lies down - pressure is spread over all the nails. But this hardly exemplifies the flies tied by Cross, Dette, or Darbee.

3) Even if Catskills did float on their tips, how long would that last? A second? Less? Think about it. It would be supported in front on a circle, in the back by a very narrow bundle tapering to a point. Can you think of anything more unstable? The slightest breath of air would roll that over on its side.

Years ago, on this site, Hans W offered serious cash to anybody who could show him a picture of a Catskill fly resting on its tips in a bowl of water (let alone a flowing creek or stream). Nobody ever hit that bid.

[Byron haugh]

Steven,
I would agree with you that the current versions of the Catskill style flies will only rest on the water without the hackle tips penetrating the water a short period of time.
But, wait for a moment as I would like to mention something about that.

First, here are the flies I put on the water surface this morning - 5 hours later at this point.



As you see, they are still floating well.......although the floatation has now become a comparadun type method using the hackle fibers protruding 90 degrees from the hook/body of the fly.

Now, I am going to suggest something for consideration. All the hackle I have these days is of the Whiting quality. The fibers are very stiff. In addition, I, and I think most tiers today who tie what can be "GENERALLY" considered to be Catskill "style" flies use such hackle.

The tiers in the Catskill haydays tied with very inferior hackle - if you consider stiffness of hackle to be a virtue. I will try to find an actual example of a fly tied by either the Darbee's or the Dette's. There are two points I would mention. One is the relative "softness" of the hackling feathers which tend to "bend" at the tips when at rest. Secondly, the tail fibers do the same ....both as sort of shock absorbers.

As I mentioned one time in this forum, Terry Helleckson mentions in his book that the tail fibers of a dry fly should be selected so as not to be too stiff in order that the fibers not penetrate the meniscus. I think you will find that nearly all current "experts" will say the opposite: "For tails, use the stiffest cock hackle you have".

Additionally, I believe that many of the Catskill tiers oversized the hackle which causes the hackle tips to be at more of a 50 to 60 degree angle to the water than the 90 degrees that modern flies of that style are tied. This would allow a softer hackle to land on the water with less force penetrating into the water surface.

Anyway, these are just the thoughts I have had in the back of my head for many years as it relates to how the original Catskill patterns floated so well. I could be completely off base, but I offer them for your consideration.


A Dette tied fly: