+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 27

Thread: Do we fishermen/fly tiers rely too much on horizontal views of our flies?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Kapaa, hawaii
    Posts
    5,480
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Do we fishermen/fly tiers rely too much on horizontal views of our flies?

    A fishing friend (and many others) suggest, for example, that the X-Caddis can be taken as much for a mayfly as a caddis fly.

    I think, to the extent this happens, the trout are taking the fly as a caddis even though there may not be caddis on the water. Caddis are somewhat ubiquitous during most of the mayfly hatching season.

    I think that while an X-Caddis, dressed like a particular mayfly, may look to us a bit like a mayfly............





    B
    ut, I think the telltale tent-like appearance from the trout's view pretty much identify it as a caddis pattern to the trout.





    I know many, including my fishing friend will disagree, it is my belief. If I remember to do so, I will try to test this out this June/July. Problem is, when I am fishing to a mayfly hatch, I get too excited to start experimenting..........Know what I mean?
    Last edited by Byron haugh; 03-26-2014 at 08:20 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Amstelveen, The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,188

    Default

    The CDC&Elk has been my most successful mayfly imitation for the past twenty years

    Cheers,
    Hans W
    ===================== You have a Friend in Low Places ======================
    Hans Weilenmann, The Netherlands
    http://www.flytierspage.com
    ================================================== ==============

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Chicago, Il, USA
    Posts
    1,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron haugh View Post
    ut, I think the telltale tent-like appearance from the trout's view pretty much identify it as a caddis pattern to the trout.
    Obviously, until a Trout learns English, nobody will know for sure....but.....

    Is the look of the X-Caddis from below that much different from that of the Harrop Hair Wing Dun?
    Do the trout even get that view? Don't they have to lead the fly (like a QB leading a wide receiver) in order to intercept it?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ontario Canada
    Posts
    363

    Default

    I think the best we can say conclusively is that the trout takes it for food. Even during selective feeding on hatches they will take the odd item that doesn't look like anything else on the water (IMHO). Having said that I think your fly would make a great mayfly substitute.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Kapaa, hawaii
    Posts
    5,480
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    Obviously, until a Trout learns English, nobody will know for sure....but.....

    Is the look of the X-Caddis from below that much different from that of the Harrop Hair Wing Dun?
    Do the trout even get that view? Don't they have to lead the fly (like a QB leading a wide receiver) in order to intercept it?
    Steven, That is sort of my argument. All studies (that I am aware of) of what a trout sees in the water agree that they first sight wing tips of an insect or a fly coming into their "window" of vision. Then, they see the impression in the meniscus on the water of the body/legs; finally, when the object is close to them, the wings align with the body and show the entire insect/fly.

    So, if fish are keying on mayflies I believe some sort of upwind is very important. When caddis are about, or were recently about, they don't need upright wings to be present.

    As to the Harrop Hairwing Dun, most folks suggest it is sort of an all-purpose pattern, but not the best when fishing to picky feeding fish. When fish are actively feeding on a particular mayfly pattern, I don't think the Hairwing Dun would be the best choice and I suggests that Rene would agree. His most promoted/used patterns are more lifelike........the cripples and the more standard type upwind flies he and his family tie.
    Last edited by Byron haugh; 03-26-2014 at 09:27 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Chicago, Il, USA
    Posts
    1,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron haugh View Post
    All studies (that I am aware of) of what a trout sees in the water agree that they first sight wing tips of an insect or a fly coming into their "window" of vision. Then, they see the impression in the meniscus on the water of the body/legs; finally, when the object is close to them, the wings align with the body and show the entire insect/fly.
    It's the last part that I'm not 100% sure of and have trouble visualizing. As I visualize it, if the trout is rising while the fly is coming down, it will never get a view of the fly from directly underneath. The trout has to be near the surface just before taking the fly.

    I've seen fish in clear water come from the side and come forward as well to intercept. There's no way they had a direct underneath view.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Kapaa, hawaii
    Posts
    5,480
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    This has been my experience, and those of many authors on the subject: When trout are keying on a specific hatch of mayflies, they often become "sippers". They lie in the feeding lanes, and, as those wings appear in their window floating toward them, they begin to rise up to "sip" the insect. So, it may not be directly below the fly, but it is under the water looking up through their window. Certainly not our vision.........viewing from perhaps 4ft. above the surface.

    I guess a corollary might be: What convinces a trout, when caddis are on the water, to take a caddis pattern? Might it be the tent-like view from beneath?
    Last edited by Byron haugh; 03-26-2014 at 10:12 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Kapaa, hawaii
    Posts
    5,480
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    My original post used the specific example of the X-Caddis fly pattern. Hans mentioned his success with the CDC&Elk in mayfly situations.
    I would argue that the CDC&Elk is substantively different in that the "flowing" CDC fibers present a substantially different look than a dubbed X-Caddis.

    I will probably be faulted for my version of Hans' pattern, but offer a view of it as a trout might see it (second photo). Granted, it is dry and not on the water, but I think this is representative.

    First the fly as we might see it.








    Then the fly as the trout might see it. I think it is dramatically different from an X-Caddis from below/looking up..............


    Last edited by Byron haugh; 03-27-2014 at 02:48 AM.

  9. #9
    AlanB Guest

    Default

    A slightly different approach. Often, especially in the waters I fish, the energy expended / energy returned ratio in obtaining food is not hugely in favour of the trout. They can't afford to pass up a possible meal. If something drifts past them, that could be food, then they will grab it. At times I have found myself watching the rise form to my fly and comparing it to the rise form to the natural. Unless they are the same I am not convinced that I have imitated the natural, just offered the fish something that could be food.

    In the Ring of the Rise Marinarno explains that sometimes a fish will hand under a fly as it drifts on the current. On one of the richer waters I have fished, (the River Aire, just below Malham in North Yorkshire, where T.E. Pritt, and Edmonds and Lea fished) I have encountered this. Sometimes with a positive result, but often not. This made me totally convinced that presentation is far more important than pattern, when fish become more selective.

    There is, of course, a cross over between pattern and presentation. This has caused me to reject parachutes as adult dun imitations (I still use them for emergers). There have been time when the fish would take a thorax dun with the hackle clipped flat below the shank, but will not take a parachute fly tied using the same materials. The difference being the former sits one body width higher on the water than the latter. Is that a difference in pattern or presentation?

    Of course most of the time I am just happy that a fish has taken the fly!

    As for a horizontal view of the fly, I tie low so am looking down at about 45 degrees at the fly I am tying. If you have seen Chris Helm tie, that is the position. (Not the same result, but the same position). I have considered buying one of the C&F Fish Eye boxes that you fill with water to photograph flies, However, my budget will not run to it just now.

    Cheers,
    A.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Kapaa, hawaii
    Posts
    5,480
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Very interesting AlanB. I think we are not far apart in our thinking.

    What I say about the way we see our flies applies when they are in the vise and while fishing. We see them from above or from the side.
    Fish rarely jump out of the water for a look at our flies. They see them from below in their "window of vision".

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Cripples - horizontal or vertical?
    By Bruce Norikane in forum Fly Tying
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-11-2016, 02:37 AM
  2. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-04-2016, 05:42 AM
  3. YOUR views wanted on rubber vs cotton net for live release
    By salmonthink in forum Fly Anglers Online
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-02-2009, 05:23 PM
  4. Web cam views
    By gonfishn in forum Sound Off
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-16-2008, 02:48 PM
  5. Fishing views
    By tnflyman in forum Fly Anglers Online
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 11-22-2005, 08:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts