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Thread: What Casts Like An Oni Rod But Costs And Weighs A Fraction As Much?

  1. #21
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    For stillwater fishing I usually use 5X tippet material, which in the brand I am using tests out at 5 Lb. test breaking strength. For stream fishing I usually go with 6X tippet material, which tests out at 3.6 Lbs. breaking strength, both of which are beyond recommendation for most Seiryu rod makers. I am careful in how I handle my rods though, or at least I try to be. In most of the places I am fishing the terrain makes it very inconvenient or impossible to get down to the water's edge, and I also do not use a landing net for that and other equally valid reasons. The heavier than recommended tippets allows me to pull the fish up to hand to release the fish with a certain comfort level that the flopping fish will not be able to break my tippet and cause a loss of fly patterns. Most of my fishing involves one day to many-day hike in situations, where lost fly patterns are not readily replaceable. Most commonly available American tippet materials do not go below 7X, although few brands do go on down to 8X tippet material, which may still exceed the Seiryu rod maker's tippet recommendations in breaking strength by a good margin.

    I have given the challenge of using tippets within the recommended weight range some consideration. Doing so would make catching even of average sized trout and bluegill a much more challenging angling undertaking. I believe long line technique places tip casting rods in the greatest danger of breakage when the rod must be laid back so that the line can be grasped by the angler to hand-line in a large fish, placing and concentrating the maximum force on the rod's tip section in that case. In running water this is not as big of a problem as it is for pond and lake fishermen, because the fish can be allowed to move either upstream or down, more or less parallel to the angler's position with the current's help or resistance as the case may be, allowing the rod about a 180 degree range of movement. But on stillwaters the fish will often move directly away from the angler or go to the bottom and sulk, where you have no lifting power left in the rod and the line will often still be well out of reach. Timber directly behind you limits how far the rod can be laid back, so you are pretty much stuck where ever you find yourself and the fish. The only solution for this problem that I have been able to come up with is to fish a line that is short enough that it will never be totally out of reach. At present I am walking a fine line between a line that's long enough to reach the fish and be stealthy but still short enough to allow the playing and landing of fish effectively, with out putting undue stress on the rod and concentrating that stress on the rod's tip section. However, I have not been able to arrive at a totally satisfactory solution so far.

    I tend to agree with GregM in that the breakage in the lower rod sections at the joints of Den's Air Stage rod was probably due to some kind of undetected manufacturing defect inherent in the rod itself, more likely than do to too strong of a tippet Lb. test rating being used. The clean, abrupt breaks shown in the video are the type that result from post manufacture nicks and bruises and or manufacturing defects. Since this was a new rod, the possibility of the rod already having been damaged is relatively slight. The large, ragged, catastrophic appearing breaks shown in the video demonstrate good to excellent rod blank integrity, with no manufacturing defects present. And when sideways pressure is applied, the joint itself can and will provide all the fulcrum point needed to shear the rod blank into two pieces. Den, were your breaks relatively clean and closer to 90 degrees or of the diagonal and ragged type? Western fly rods utilize thread wraps to re-enforce the female ferrules to help prevent splitting of the rod blank material at the joint. I don't believe fixed line rods utilize that re-enforcing construction technique. Perhaps, they should.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    I do not agree that breaks in the lower sections of the rod are not or cannot be caused by using a tippet that is too strong. I have broken one rod in the lower sections, breaking #8 and #9 in a 10 section rod (section counts start from the tip as #1). The break was right at the junction between #8 and #9, but was not a clean break. I was trying to stop a fish that was much too large for the rod (the largest trout I've ever hooked) and the bend in the rod was concentrated in the lower sections. I am sure that had the tippet been weaker, it would have broken before the rod did. I was using a Tectan spinning line for tippet that had a breaking strength of a bit over 6#. That was very early in my fixed line fishing and I didn't have any sense of what a rod could take.

    I have broken one rod that was a clean break and occurred exactly where #3 came out of #4. I don't think tippet strength was an issue. I was surprised by what I thought was a fish and struck too hard on what turned out to be a log. I think the quick, sharp strike focused the bend right at the spot where a junction created a harder spot, kind of like the guy's finger creating a hard spot caused the fly rods to break in the video. I have what is left of the broken part, and have tried tdo break it. I am sure I can break it, but I was surprised at how much strain I have put on it without breaking it. Similarly, one of the rods I lent out very early on to get a user's perspective came back with a broken tip. I then tried to break what was left and was very surprised at how much strain I could put on the tip without breaking it.

    Daiwa tenkara rods do have reinforcements at the junctions. The walls of the tubes are thicker on the butt ends of each segment so there is additional material where a section comes out of the next larger one - which is right where the one clean break occurred on the rod above. Daiwa also has what it calls a "V" joint, which makes the joint less of a hard spot.
    Last edited by CM_Stewart; 11-05-2013 at 06:44 PM.
    Tenkara Bum

  3. #23
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    I found the missing piece of section #5 on a later outing. The break mid section was clean. The break at the junction had a bit more of a tear than a clean 90 degree shear. The #6 section that split may have split after the fact... I do not know. Removing the sheared portion of #5 was very difficult to do. It was very difficult to get any purchase on the broken piece to remove it. I was very careful, but #6 may have been compromised in some way, such that it split the next time out...

    I was using Varivas Master Spec 6x mono.

    I believe a fact of life with Seiryu rods, i.e. truly ultralight rods, is that they are plenty strong for normal fish loads, but have little in reserve strength for handling higher peak/transient loads. Fish with them accordingly.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I tend to agree with GregM in that the breakage in the lower rod sections at the joints of Den's Air Stage rod was probably due to some kind of undetected manufacturing defect inherent in the rod itself, more likely than do to too strong of a tippet Lb. test rating being used.
    Just to clarify, in my post above I said -
    "Breaks in the lower sections are harder to understand. Assuming the tippet is appropriate, and you are fighting fish with the first three sections straightened out, breaks would seem to be a result of manufacturing anomalies."

    I believe using "inappropriate tippet", i.e over-rated for the rod, can certainly lead to failure in the lower sections, independent of any manufactuing or design issues.
    Last edited by GregM; 11-06-2013 at 02:49 AM.

  5. #25
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    Jun 2012
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    I believe this has been a pretty insightful little discussion, with valuable in put being made by all the people involved. While we anglers do not have all that much control over what the fish do, especially with a big hard fighting fish we may not have much of a chance of landing, we do have control over how we are handling our rods. And I submit that breakage avoidance will be best maintained by a diligent awareness to not be concentrating the force of the fight on any one part or area of the rod. But spreading the load out over the entire rod so that no one area takes the brunt of the fighting force at any given time, such as was demonstrated at the beginning of the video where a too heavy of a weight was attempting to be lifted by the rod off of the floor and catastrophic rod failure quickly occurred. That's exactly the kind of action we want to avoid at all costs, and I would rather loose a fish any day than break one of my rods, even though they can be relatively quickly and inexpensively repaired.

    I did not intend to imply that too heavy a tippet material being used could not or would not cause heavier butt sections failures, just that I didn't think Devon was using too heavy (too high a pound test rating) of a rated tippet material in that instance. The multiple stiff points the joints put into our rods provide multiple breakpoint fulcrums if we do not spread the load evenly over the entire rod. For sure, this is or can be more of an angler operator error more than it is an equipment rod failure....Golden.
    Last edited by Golden; 11-06-2013 at 05:00 PM.

  6. #26
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    May 2013
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    United States
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    I was back at the same hole yesterday. If not for an ill-timed conference-call (30 min wasted, sitting on the bank watching trout frolic right in front of me) and the way a 14' rod catches the attention of chatty passers-by (this hole is adjacent to a small office building parking lot) I'd have caught twice as many fish. Despite that, it was my best day ever fishing for stocked trout with dry flies.

    I was using a furled fluorocarbon leader of my own construction:

    5m, 2 ply, 10# fluorocarbon (Seaguar Abrazx) + .6 m, 2 ply, 6# fluorocarbon, + .3m of 1 ply, #6 fluorocarbon + 1m 6x tippet.

    That line cast beautifully and I credit that with my much greater rate of success. These are fish I've caught before, who are getting very good at detecting tippet and run and hide when something splashes into the water. And I had zero cover sitting on the bank about 5' higher than the water's surface.

    I used some Mucilin on the furled sections to keep them from sinking my flies (a size 20 Al's Trico or Griffith's gnat).

    I'm getting used to fishing without being able to easily see my line.

    Changing rods and lines frequently has been a key factor in improving my casting. Initially I was afraid that the overhead of adjusting to a new rod/line combo would be significant. In fact, it has been quite the opposite.





  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Prague, Czech Republic
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregM View Post
    Just to clarify, in my post above I said -
    I believe using "inappropriate tippet", i.e over-rated for the rod, can certainly lead to failure in the lower sections, independent of any manufactuing or design issues.
    Another tip: do not lock extended segments very tightly. Pinched joint provokes the breakage of thinner segment.
    Small stream junkei and tenkara apologist, write for http://www.tenkaratimes.com

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenkara.cz View Post
    Another tip: do not lock extended segments very tightly. Pinched joint provokes the breakage of thinner segment.
    Tell that to the angry rainbow at the end of my line....
    Last edited by GregM; 11-08-2013 at 12:02 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregM View Post
    Tell that to the angry rainbow at the end of my line....
    Last tip: use "big fish" tenkara rods :
    tenkara bow.jpg
    Small stream junkei and tenkara apologist, write for http://www.tenkaratimes.com

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