Whitcraft Fly Pattern

[hairwing]

You guys are all close but "no cigars" yet. Bob Carmicheal came up the fly Whitcraft and you can find out what he has to say about the fly if you have a copy of J Edson Leonard's book "Flies"....try pg. 302 in the appendix.


BTW....Carmicheal is still alive and somewhere close here in Denver. Just yesterday had a conversation with a local antique fly shop owner who told me that Bob comes in and visits with him form time to time. He commented that Bob is worn physically but his mind is sharp as a tack. I hope I get a chance to bump into him and shoot some s.....


.....the original was tied with a macaw quill for the body.

[Allan]

You guys are all close but "no cigars" yet. Bob Carmicheal came up the fly Whitcraft and you can find out what he has to say about the fly if you have a copy of J Edson Leonard's book "Flies"....try pg. 302 in the appendix.


BTW....Carmicheal is still alive and somewhere close here in Denver. Just yesterday had a conversation with a local antique fly shop owner who told me that Bob comes in and visits with him form time to time. He commented that Bob is worn physically but his mind is sharp as a tack. I hope I get a chance to bump into him and shoot some s.....


.....the original was tied with a macaw quill for the body.

Okay, I just read the passage you refer to. You should read it over again. Carmichael wrote that he had Don Martinez tye up a fly that incorporated the materials you mentioned. He(Carmichael) named the fly after his friend.

[Byron haugh]

Here is the passage, you can judge for yourself if it was Martinez or Carmicheal.

[Allan]

Reading the entire letter from Carmichael I wonder, and I'm just asking, was he a fly tyer or did he just get some ideas that he wanted incorporated into what he thought might be a good or better pattern? Nothing wrong with that and a lot of fly fishermen do not tye but they have good/excellent ideas about what will work.

[Byron haugh]

I was about to mention the same thing. There are several "old timers" who asked a tier to tie a certain pattern and then named it. I think, in those old days, the "men of means" who fished weren't into tying, but used tiers sort of like PGA golfer's use their caddies today. I'm not saying this specifically about Carmichael as he did tie, but in general, about some of the early "gentlemen fly fishers".

For example, this article about the origin of The Adams. One of several stories has Mr. Adams telling Halladay how to tie the fly to imitate insects he had seen. Not the only story of the origins, mind you, but one of them.

http://hatchesmagazine.com/blogs/Hatches/2010/04/19/the-adams-history-revisited-by-tom-deschaine/


As to McCaw being used as the body of the Whitcraft, that is what the dialogue states. However, when you look at the pattern index in the SAME book by Leonard, the Whitcraft is said to have a body of two brown and one yellow moose hairs..........

[Byron haugh]

This variant of the Whitcraft tied with a counter wrap of fine gold wire.

[Allan]

Byron,

Nice fly.
However, and just asking, when does tying a specific pattern with some different looking material not just a similar substitution, a change in the shape (or 'variance'), or added on something, actually cause the new fly to be a new pattern instead of just a 'Variant'? Your fly is no more of a variant of the Whitcraft then it is a variant of the Mosquito or some other similar fly pattern.
If a few changes allow someone to call something a 'variant' of something already established, then both the Red Quill and Lt. Hendrickson are is simply variants of a Quill Gordon(body), either the Rat Faced MacDougal or the Irresistible is a variant of the other (not sure which came 1st), the Gray Fox is a variant of the March Brown, and so on.
So, if you have the 'original', where does a 'variant' come into the picture, and where does a 'new' pattern begin?

[Jayatwork]

BTW....Carmicheal is still alive and somewhere close here in Denver. Just yesterday had a conversation with a local antique fly shop owner who told me that Bob comes in and visits with him form time to time. He commented that Bob is worn physically but his mind is sharp as a tack. I hope I get a chance to bump into him and shoot some s.....

Must be a different Bob Carmichael or Bruce Staples is way off in Frontier Flies. He says Bob Carmichael was born in 1898 or 1899 and died in 1959.

Also on the subject of Carmichael having Martinez tie his flies, Staples says "Although a superb tier Bob was not of the temperament to grind out dozens of flies. This was performed by Donnelly, Martinez and persons under their tutelage."

[Byron haugh]

Jay,
I think that you are correct.

By the way, I believe the Whitcraft was devised to imitate a Mahogany Dun. Not sure of that, but I think that is correct.

[hairwing]

Must be a different Bob Carmichael or Bruce Staples is way off in Frontier Flies. He says Bob Carmichael was born in 1898 or 1899 and died in 1959.

Also on the subject of Carmichael having Martinez tie his flies, Staples says "Although a superb tier Bob was not of the temperament to grind out dozens of flies. This was performed by Donnelly, Martinez and persons under their tutelage."

Erratum...mea culpa, mea maxima culpa !!!!


I went back to the shop today and found out that it is Tom Carmicheal...Bob's son who we were talking about and is alive in Denver. Still... a sit down with Tom would be quite a history lesson as he worked for his Dad up at the Moose Fly Shop.


On another note...and it must be a generational thing....when I hear a fly referred to as a "variant" my mental image is a fly such as Donnelly's Variant or Flick's, Grey Fox Variant. These flies have specific differences from what is considered a standard dry fly, having longer hackle with short wings or no wings and tails to put the fly way up on the surface to float as high as possible. A change to materials from the original tie and referred to as a variant confuses me! Changes made to a fly by way of material substitution, in the ole days were simply noted as substitutions in the fly recipe and the fly was tied with that consideration.


Amen....but by all means keep me confused. I can handle it. Makes me giggle.