Nickel and Dimed by a guide/outfitter?

[Andrew]

I am sorry for my poor choice of words when I said closer to two thousand. I don't have the receipt but as I recall the trip was around 1,200 and then went up from there. The add ons were for the tip (no problem), renting waders and boots (no problem), flies and tippet material used (bad taste in my mouth).

I certainly understand the difference between all inclusive pricing and pricing each individual item. We had a choice of rivers to fish and all would have been the same price - - we could have waded the Madison instead of floating the Yellowstone. Obviously floating was much more expensive for the guide, he drove us to the site, had to pay to have his truck moved, etc. We could have floated for two days instead of wading for one. So that part of this was 'fixed price' and we know we payed higher for the ability to make last minute decisions. We were OK with that. But that very thing is what made paying a few bucks extra at the end for flies and tippet seem kind of nickel and dime.

[HickoryShad]

Well it is good that you posted you experience on here so that those of us that do this very often, can help you to understand the kinds of questions to ask before you even book a trip and to possibly get references where needed. We work hard our money and don't really want to pay a high price for the learning curve when some only get one shot at this kind of thing every couple of years. I got lucky, sorta, when I first started going out west many years ago, my friend had made an aquaintance with an outfitter and then I met the guy that use through those trips, and through meeting that guide, you get to learn others that he respects or uses when he is overbooked etc. This is where you gain the knowledge, hands on experience, learn who to call for what etc. Can't put a price on that kind of stuff.

[zaxaca]

I prefer the "all included" pricing, but am certainly not offended by a guide asking reimbursement for flies used. But tippet? Good grief!

[moonlitflies]

Maybe furled leaders should be more common practice, as they are more durable and cost effective! Always going to be people looking for more ways to make an extra buck.

Brandon

[Jeremy]

Man, if he'd have tried that one on me you'd had heard me laughing from the landing!!! And his tip.....................................

Then I'd have posted online. He'd be paintin' cabins by summers end. Done!!

I've had a couple guides on Mt. and the worked their arses off rowing on the MO. and they were tipped accordingly, as they should've been. But that boy.....NAH!

Jeremy.

[Longs for Cutts]

Jeremy:

Please don't assume the guide is at fault. I suspect I know which shop the OP used, and their policies are a bit strange. The thing to remember is that it is the outfitter or shop that books the trip that sets the policies. Guides can't work for themselves in Montana; you have to be an outfitter, and to become an outfitter you need several hundred days working as a guide. Most guides here are independent contractors working for several outfitters/shops but who can't advertise their own services (I am a single-outfitter guide). Basically, most ICs are scrambling to get on an outfitter's call list. A guide who doesn't do what the outfitter tells him won't be getting any more calls. So it's sort of a rock and a hard place. You need the customer to be happy but also the outfitter or shop to be happy too. If the OP used the shop I'm thinking of, they operate as a booking agent for an outside outfitter rather than having their own outfitter's license, so virtually all their money comes from fly/terminal tackle sales, hence the nickel & diming.

Edit:
Reread the OP and maybe he went with an outfitter-guide rather than someone through a shop. If so, everything above no longer applies. Leaving it up for explanatory purposes.

[Crotalus]

The guide should be able to charge for whatever materials or services they want to charge for and should be able to charge whatever price they want. But, they should be upfront about it and not slide an extra bill in at the end of the trip.

That seems to be the issue with the OP, I'm guessing that if the guide had stated up front that there was a charge for flies and tippet then the OP would have been prepared for it or could have chosen not to make the trip.

[Andrew]

Jeremy:

Please don't assume the guide is at fault. I suspect I know which shop the OP used, and their policies are a bit strange. The thing to remember is that it is the outfitter or shop that books the trip that sets the policies. Guides can't work for themselves in Montana; you have to be an outfitter, and to become an outfitter you need several hundred days working as a guide. Most guides here are independent contractors working for several outfitters/shops but who can't advertise their own services (I am a single-outfitter guide). Basically, most ICs are scrambling to get on an outfitter's call list. A guide who doesn't do what the outfitter tells him won't be getting any more calls. So it's sort of a rock and a hard place. You need the customer to be happy but also the outfitter or shop to be happy too. If the OP used the shop I'm thinking of, they operate as a booking agent for an outside outfitter rather than having their own outfitter's license, so virtually all their money comes from fly/terminal tackle sales, hence the nickel & diming.

Edit:
Reread the OP and maybe he went with an outfitter-guide rather than someone through a shop. If so, everything above no longer applies. Leaving it up for explanatory purposes.

Without going into too much detail, I think you are right. The guide we used was recommended by another guide my buddy knew and had previously used, but that was in Colorado. We confirmed dates with the guide but then he told us we needed to book through a fly shop that we later found out was an "outfitter" and that because this was in Montana the guide couldn't work on his own.

You said that the outfitter's only money comes from the sale of the terminal tackle and flies - don't they get a percentage of the guide fees?

If you want to know the name of the shop to confirm your suspicions, PM me and I will send it to you. I'd really rather not post it in public. We did have a very good time on the trip and in the whole scheme of things this part was very minor. I think we'd even use the shop again.

[jszymczyk]

I believe that most accomplished anglers may occasionally use a guide as sort of "a way of renting a boat". There are certain rivers and sections of rivers that are best fished from a drift boat. This is especially true if you are on a fishing trip out West and don't have your own drift boat to get to those great fishing spots and/or cover miles and miles of good fishing waters.

As to the tip, the common price for 2 anglers on a full-day drift guided trip is 525. The average tipping percentage in the service industry (i.e., restaurants) is between 12% and 15%. At the accepted restaurant rate that would be approx. $80. But then, the wait staff doesn't spend much time with each customer and doesn't devote a full day to just two people............ And, they are using their equipment (boat, trailer, vehicle, etc.) and they are skilled - both in terms of fishing, reading the water, handling a boat, etc. They are licensed as well.

The guide spends all day with you. They work hard manipulating the drift boat in a heavy river to put you and your buddy in positions to hook some big fish. They often haul you and the boat a hundred miles or more (each way) in their vehicle; serve you and your buddy a shore lunch; etc., etc.

They deserve all they receive for the job they hold for maybe 4-5 months a year...........IMHO, that is.

I can understand the "rent a boat" concept. I did that one time in Florida to take my son bass fishing. I'm not sure I agree with "accomplished anglers" though...

Also, if guides were concerned that they only hold "a job" for 4-5 months, they would be doing something else, like most of us.

I do have a difficult time understanding the hiring of a guide for a "walk/wade" trip on publicly accessible water.

[Byron haugh]

The reason I said "accomplished anglers" is for that very reason - an accomplished angler would generally not hire a guide for a guided wading trip in public waters. They generally would not need a guide in that circumstance.

That is why I said ".....accomplished angles may occasionally use a guide a sort of 'a way of renting a boat'."
It is also why I said that reaching certain rivers and sections of rivers are best fished from a drift boat.
Some Western rivers do not lend themselves to wade fishing. There are some in which you can only access small stretches via wading.
In addition, many rivers in Montana have a large part of the river frontage privately owned. So, you cannot access those significant stretches of river. Given their public high water mark laws, one can fish those stretches from a boat as long as you don't get out on the banks..............and put the boat in, and take it out, at public access points placed for that purpose.