Medium or Medium Fast Action Rod for Nymph Fishing?

[Silver Creek]

I also prefer a fast action rod for nymphing.

The stiffer the fly rod, the faster the tip reacts to a hook set. The stiffer the fly rod, the easier it is to mend fly line and the more accurately you can place the mend.

From a physics standpoint, if we didn't have to cast or fight the fish, the perfect nymphing fly rod would not bend at all. The best nymphing rod will have a 1:1 relationship with your arm motion. Any delay or bend in the rod both delays the motion and makes the motion at the rod tip less precise.

My view is that a fly rod should both be able to nymph and fish dry flies. You should be able to do both depending on what is happening on the water. I think casting accuracy trumps other considerations. So although I think a pure nymphing fly rod should be a fast action rod, get the rod that is the best all around fly rod for the fishing you do. I would use casting accuracy as the primary consideration.

[appalachian angler]

A stiif fast rod may be appropriate for tight line nymphing with a short line, but if you want to reach out with an indicator system, you best be a phenominal caster to turn over a lot of weight and/or thingmabobbers with a stiff rod. That fact and the one about stiff rods not favoring light tippets makes fishing this way a chore for most average flyfisherman. You don't need a fast rod to develop line speed anyway...old wives tale and a lot of HYPE from the manufacturers trying to sell more aerospace gobbly-gook rods. To each their own I suppose. As often as I fish, and if I fished the kinds rods you like to fish Silver, I would be laid up right now from multiple surgeries! There is no cheat in a rod. The rod must be albe to load, and deliver the fly line. The fly line needs to have enough mass to turn over the stuff on the business end of the leader. Simple physics!

[chewydog]

A stiif fast rod may be appropriate for tight line nymphing with a short line, but if you want to reach out with an indicator system, you best be a phenominal caster to turn over a lot of weight and/or thingmabobbers with a stiff rod. That fact and the one about stiff rods not favoring light tippets makes fishing this way a chore for most average flyfisherman. You don't need a fast rod to develop line speed anyway...old wives tale and a lot of HYPE from the manufacturers trying to sell more aerospace gobbly-gook rods. To each their own I suppose. As often as I fish, and if I fished the kinds rods you like to fish Silver, I would be laid up right now from multiple surgeries! There is no cheat in a rod. The rod must be albe to load, and deliver the fly line. The fly line needs to have enough mass to turn over the stuff on the business end of the leader. Simple physics!

Speaking of gobbly-gook, not much of that makes any sense, or based in fact. Bias maybe, not fact. Let me see if I have this straight.

• You can't cast an indicator, or weight with a fast rod.
• You'll break off all your fish with a fast rod because your tippet will break.
• All new technologies are manufacturer hype.
• Fast rods can't load and/or deliver the fly line.
• You need line mass to turn over weight. (not relevant to rod speed)
• Fast rods are only good for "high sticking"
• And, last but not least, if you fish a fast rod, you will need multiple surgeries...

I don't know where to begin, so I won't address most of this, which doesn't relate to the original posters question anyway. I don't think you fish, cast, or own anything resembling a fast rod. You have no idea how to cast one, or you wouldn't worry about surgeries...btw, it's mostly the same motions, so it you're hurting yourself, maybe casting lessons would be in order.
Opinions are just that, so don't come on here and spout them and call it physics.
IMHO
Just to clarify, I nymph, fish dries, and streamers on a Sage XP (fairly fast). Will sometimes go down to a medium fast rod if I'm double hauling in a boat all day. The "slower" rod tweaks the tip easier on the haul.

[billyspey]

[QUOTE=appalachian angler;479858]A stiif fast rod may be appropriate for tight line nymphing with a short line, but if you want to reach out with an indicator system, you best be a phenominal caster to turn over a lot of weight and/or thingmabobbers with a stiff rod. That fact and the one about stiff rods not favoring light tippets makes fishing this way a chore for most average flyfisherman. You don't need a fast rod to develop line speed anyway...old wives tale and a lot of HYPE from the manufacturers trying to sell more aerospace gobbly-gook rods. To each their own I suppose. As often as I fish, and if I fished the kinds rods you like to fish Silver, I would be laid up right now from multiple surgeries! There is no cheat in a rod. The rod must be albe to load, and deliver the fly line. The fly line needs to have enough mass to turn over the stuff on the business end of the leader. Simple

Lines have become very high tech. Just as rods have in the last few years . Very important to get a good line match to the rod . When you do everything will come full circle for you . You should be having trouble casting weight with strike indicator, with proper match line to rod.i fish Sage XP and Z axis for nymph rigs with shoulder issues but you need to match things up a little. Fly size to indicators to line to rod than everything will come together for you. Go to a good fly shop who sales the rod you have and ask a few question about lines and rad matches for what you want to do with the rod ( may get a little help with your casting ) a more open loop will help you cast weight and bobbers . I am 71 yrs old and never had shoulder problems with faster action rods. Fast action rods are not tomatoes sticks the are faster to recover from bend to straight than medium action rods.

[appalachian angler]

Chewy; you got me...Biased against fast rod. Regardless of the relative stiffness of a rod, or rate of recovery, a flyrod needs to be adequately loaded in able to perform to it's full potential. I have experienced, and observed first hand how many rod manufacturers line recommendations are at least one line light. This gives the uneducated caster the impression of "speed" as the rod doesn't "seem" to be working as hard to turn over the line leader and fly. A person with enough casting experience and practice can make that type of rod/line work for them, and even may convince themselves it is a good thing. I fished Fast Sage rods for years until I noticed that when I went back to my "slow" full flexing Orvis rods, fishing them all day long did not cause me tendonitis type pain that started in my hand and travelled all the way to my shoulder. It was not because I could not cast them properly, it was because the mechanics of casting my XP 490 were much different than casting my Orvis superfine 586. The other thing that I have observed is that fast recovery rods are harder on my arm when setting hooks and playing fish (yes, I actually catch a lot of fish). Any rod out there can be made to seem 'sped up' by going down a line size. Question is, is that really very efficient when we are talking about nymph rigs? A slower rod will open up your loop more (as Bill suggests) to facilitate easy turnover of said nymph rigs. A fully loaded rod (a spring ready to release it's energy) will make this easier on the caster, if, and only if they get their mind wrapped around the idea that the delivery cannot be distributed in the same manner as a single dry fly. Rod manufactures seem, in my opinion, to claim their latest and greatest technological advancements make it such that any of their rods will provide the edge necessary to throw razor thin loops with everything a fisherman can dream up to attach to a tippet! That, my friend is what I would call "hype".

[Silver Creek]

Here's my opinion on rod action, casting, and nymphing.

First of all loop size is not related to whether a rod is slow or fast. There is nothing inherent about a slow or fast rod that prevent a SLP (straight line path) of the rod tip. A rod bends when loaded and a slower rod bends more for a given load. That means the chord (effective rod length = distance from casting hand to rod tip) of the shortens and this shortening makes the softer rod more prone to tailing loops unless the acceleration is very smooth.

The fly line follows the rod tip. The rod tip follows the path of the hand except for one change. As we apply power to the rod, the rod flexes, and when it flexes, the effective rod length shortens so that the rod tip comes closer to the casting hand. See illustration below and note that as rod tip comes closer to the casting hand, the convex stroke path compensates for shortening of the chord.





If we move our casting hand in a straight line rather than the convex path above, we are not compensating for the shortening of the rod tip. The rod tip will travel not in a straight path but in a concave path as it flexes and straightens during the straight line casting motion. This causes a tailing loop.

The video with the rod butt fixed shows that the shortening of the rod must cause a tailing loop.








Fast rods for equivalent casts require a straighter casting stoke vs a more convex casting stroke for a tight loop with a slower fly rod. To open up a cast with any rod, make the stroke path more convex. The stroke path and the rod tip shortening determine the shape of the loop and not whether the rod is a fast or slow action rod.




Secondly, going up or down in line weight does nothing to change the action of a fly rod. I read all the time that over lining a rod will turn a fast action rod into a medium action rod.

That simply is not true. Action is how the rod bends under a progressive load; it is the flex profile of the fly rod. The flex profile is designed into the fly rod and as long as the fly rod does not break, it has the same action regardless of load.

What we are changing by changing the fly line is the load. A fast action rod with a higher load is still the same fast action rod with a lighter load. It will still have the same flex profile.

What changes is the timing of the cast. So although the timing slows down with increasing loads, the action remains the same. When you hook the fish, you will still have the flex profile of a fast action fly rod with a stiffer rod tip.

Finally, when casting a strike indicator and several flies and split shot we are changing both the load on the fly rod and the distribution of mass. The fly line, leader, and terminal tackle are not longer in balance. There is not a gradual distribution of mass but several spot areas of very high relative mass.

There are several ways to cast this. With lesser mass imbalances, an oval cast is the best method. This will keep the rod leg and fly leg of the cast separated horizontally in space and they will not tangle or hit the rod.

By using an oval/elliptical casting motion, the back cast and forward cast are made in different planes and this separates the two legs of the loop formation. Even if the upper and lower legs of the loop formation cross vertically, they cannot catch on each other because they are separated horizontally in space; they are in different planes.

Heavy nymphing rigs cannot be cast in the normal sense of a fly cast with a separate forward cast and back cast. They must be lobbed. You can lob with a fast or slow rod, but a fast rod will lob further than a slow rod. That is because a fast rod bends less for a given load and it maintains it's length (chord). A longer chord is a longer functional lever and a longer lever give the caster a mechanical advantage over a shorter lever.

The way that I cast very heavy rigs is to use a water tension cast. You don't form a normal loop or a normal cast. You let out as much line to water load the rod and then you shoot line into the lob. I allow the river flow to take the indicator and flies below me. When the line straightens, the drag of the water on the indicator and sunken flies loads the rod as I make the forward lobbing cast. This kind of fishing is not for everyone but on fast flow rivers, it is very productive.

[WarrenP]

Silver,

Thank you for that last post. I found it very interesting to read and I enjoyed the drawings and video.

[appalachian angler]

I am sorry guys to have infuriated a few "fast" rod guys (so defensive) and I will not take any more jabs. One thing I do not understand, is why the masses keep migrating toward lighter line rods? For all purpose nymphing, in today's graphite realm, might I suggest a 9 ft 6 wt rod in whatever action you prefer. Unless the rod is stiff as a telephone pole, even a 10" trout should put a nice bend in a 906 rod. IMHO, a softer rod will allow for nice gentle, and big sweeping mends when necessary. With a little practice, these types of mends can be made to control drift without moving the indicator! The best mending rod I own is a 7'6" Orvis Bamboo rod for a 6wt line. For you nay sayers, you ought to get over the macho BIG FAST rod kick and try a real fly rod...HA!

Lets watch what we post! Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Denny

[oldfrat]

People seem to have strong feelings on this issue, so I hesitate to engage. I have no expertise, just a lot of time spent nymphing.

A medium fast rod did fine for me. I tried a much softer and longer Czech nymphing rod and didn't enjoy it as it made picking up the line and heaving it upstream more work. I never tried it with a fast rod, but I don't think that would have made much difference to me. The reason for this is that had my greatest nymphng success on drifts that came downstream within 10' of my feet. There may have been more fish there, but I suspect the biggest reason was that I could achieve a more natural drift close in.

[appalachian angler]

Denny, there was no malice intended. I think some folks just don't get my sense of humor. I will cease and desist on this thread.