Catskill report

[analogbob]

I'm sorry Tyeflies but it's not a "crock!"

This flood in the Delaware Valley below the Cannonsville and Pepacton Dams is a direct result of keeping their water levels at 100%. Make no mistake about it: If this policy continues there will be more floods there; maybe even this year again. I have been visiting this region since 1968 and this was the worst flooding I have seen on the Delaware. In past years the water levels of the reservoirs would have been lowered by 25% to 30% by June and July. Then if a big storm hit there would be storage capacity for excess water. During those times, any flooding the Delaware experienced would be caused by the waters from the undammed Beaverkill and tributary's that entered the river below the dams. Since 9/11 the water coming over the dams has been added to that contributed by the Beaverkill et al. As I said, "Do the Math."

The people who live in the valley below the dams suffered just as much as those who sustained damage from flooding streams above them. The difference is that there are structures in place to protect them from it.

What good are dams if part of their purpose is not to keep ones homes and livelihoods safe from flooding? They are designed for multiple uses. To limit them for use only as drinking water for municipalites in other watersheds is unwise and politically imprudent. The taxpayers of the entire United States will be handed the bill from
FEMA to pay for the costs to restore the damage caused here.

Floods will occur. On some rivers, like the Susquehanna, there isn't much you can do about them. On others, like the Delaware, there are safeguards in place to abate them and it's damn (pun intended) foolish not to use them!

Bob

Bob,

"In past years the water levels of the reservoirs would have been lowered by 25% to 30% by June and July. Then if a big storm hit there would be storage capacity for excess water. During those times, any flooding the Delaware experienced would be caused by the waters from the undammed Beaverkill and tributary's that entered the river below the dams. Since 9/11 the water coming over the dams has been added to that contributed by the Beaverkill et al. As I said, "Do the Math."

I think you should check your history. I'm pretty sure the Canonsville doesn't start any good releases until after mid-June. In fact, in June several years ago, I was at the DRC and watched as Al Caucci and others were calling the DEC and other agencies to push for releases because the flows were so low. You could walk across the river at WBA and not get your knees wet. What does 9/11 have to do with anything? The river releases were and are established by a river authority that requires a minimum amount of flow at Montague, NJ(or is it PA). The riverkeeper sets the releases based on the sheer volume. Now maybe he can shift releases from the reservoirs but the minimum volume must be maintained based on downriver needs. There are times when levels can exceed the minimum, as when the salt water is backing up into the Delaware.

Yet another thing, during the winter months the reservoirs are often drawn down to low capacities. A few years ago people were complaining about the fact that Canonsville had been drawn down to 5%. Again NYC was to blame.

Now this is going to sound harsh and believe me I do care for the people, the industries, the land and the recreation of that area. I lived there. However, any river or even a good size stream can be a raging torrent and flood possibility. If you want to avoid the danger of a flood, don't live where that possibility exists. Similarly, if you don't want your home to fall into the ocean you don't put it on the bluff over-looking the Pacific. Nice view but don't blame the government for not preventing an earthquake or a mud slide. Or maybe people should reconsider building homes where there's a greater risk that Mother Nature will vent. Rivers will flood, earth will move, forests have fire, snow avalanches, oceans have tsunomies, etc.

In other words - S*it Happens! People, for whatever reason, put themselves in these positions and sometimes it comes back and bites them in the butt. The people whose homes are along the Susquehanna, Beaverkill and Willowemoc, especially below feeder creeks, suffered greatly. No reservoirs.

Allan

[This message has been edited by tyeflies (edited 06 July 2006).]

[MrFishingToughGuy]

My wife and I happened to be driving up to Rochester, NY from Baltimore last Thursday. We got to see the flooding on the Susquehanna firsthand - in fact, in Camp Hill on US 15, water very nearly made it onto the roadway and probably did after we went through - my understanding is that the river had not yet crested there.

I believe, and this could be quite untrue, that flooding like that may be augmented by an increase in impermeable surfaces. Since AGnes in 1972, US 15 has grown in size, and with it has come commerce. What was once an incredible farmland floodplain has accepted its share of parking lots and other developments.

Not being critical, just hypothesizing. With less ground surface to accept and hold water, that same water runs off and inundates the river.

Our prayers go out to anyone touched by this disaster, wherever they may be.

Marty
MFTG

[foxxtrot]

[url=http://216.230.164.253/slide.php:3ce5c]http://216.230.164.253/slide.php[/url:3ce5c]

here is a slide show presented by The Daily Star. [url=http://www.thedailystar.com/:3ce5c]http://www.thedailystar.com/[/url:3ce5c] - flood photos

The photos are bad and I feel so sorry for those folks. I posted last night Walton - actual river is the Delaware behind. I grew up in Treadwell and spent alot of time in Walton and Franklin. I don't think the Walton Fair is going to happen either.

[Mike_D]

COBRA,

God's way of cleaning things up? Are you serious? Did you read Mantis' original post? A sixteen year old girl ... someone's sixteen year old daughter ... lost her life. Try to show a little class, and choose your words more carefully.

Mike D. [url=http://battenkill.tripod.com:cc2ea]http://battenkill.tripod.com[/url:cc2ea]

[NSSCOBRA]

What are you talking about class well you tell me who let the rain come down then things like this happen it is sad that there is alot of damage some deaths but it does happen I guess some people have to Point fingers even if it was mother natures fault that this all happened not any dam or reservoir i use to live in that neck of the woods and this isn't the first time this has happened and i bet it wont be the last

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[Fly Time]

NSSCOBRA ??? suggest that you consider the reason for the initial post ??? to communicate the tragedy not to point fingers or blame. I think we need to consider the huge magnitude of the loss and suffering involved. Property, livelihoods and life itself was lost. No matter who or what is to blame these natural disasters can and do strike all of us at some point no matter where we live. We could all be in a similar situation some day. Therefore, suggest that a focus on compassion and providing assistance is more appropriate than arguing about what caused this. There will be all kinds of review and discussion on what man can do to try and mitigate these occurrences. When it comes to God that is obviously quite a personal belief. If you believe that God intended for this to happen and for this young life to be taken that is your belief. To me, I find God???s presence in the love, support, giving and good things that come from such tragedies, but do not feel God causes such loss.

Fly Time,

Read the 3rd paragraph of Analogbob's post. It was the 1st post after the initial one. He immediately blames NYC for the situation.
"This disaster was the direct result of New York City's policy..."


You write,
"No matter who or what is to blame these natural disasters can and do strike all of us at some point no matter where we live".

I totally agree. However, more often than not, 'where we live' has a heck of a lot to do with the types of natural disasters we are subject to and where natural disasters have a higher risk of occurance and may even be quasi-predictable: Along rivers; On sea bluffs; On a fault line; Along 'twister' plains; Near huge snow accumulation; In areas of forestry where lightening causes fast spreading and destructive fires; etc. If people choose to live in these places because of personal considerations, they should not be surprised when something happens. Yes, it's a shame that these events create victims and cause such misery.

That's it. I'm done.

Allan

[analogbob]

Darn! i was hoping I wouldn't need a rebuttal, I'd rather talk about Glass rods, but the towns that have been in the Delaware Valley for generations and the people who lived and still live in them deserve a friendly word. Sure, it would be wiser if they moved out, and they may very well have if two enormous dams were not built on the headwaters of the Delaware 40 or so years ago. Granted, New York built them for water supply for New York City. But Water Supply and Flood Protection are not mutually exclusive objectives. In fact, if priorities are set right, they can be mutually inclusive. The 2 major priorities should be drinking water and flood protection. The cottage industries that have appeared as a result of the new "tailwater fishery" should be near the bottom of the priority list. In wet years and normal years, efforts should be made to keep the maximum capacity of the reservoirs at no more than 80%, leaving the rest for flood control. If this screws up the fishing below the dams, so be it. In periods of drought priority should be given to maintaining an adequate supply of drinking water for NYC. This is not rocket science! Reasonable people working together can meet these goals! These reservoirs are enormous. There is really no reason to keep them at 100% capacity for long periods of time.

Nothing could be done to stop the flooding above the dams, but much could have been done to alleviate any flooding below them. Let's not let it happen again!

Bob

[Avalon]

Dear Bob,

"Nothing could be done to stop the flooding above the dams, but much could have been done to alleviate any flooding below them. Let's not let it happen again!"

You got that right. You only need to look at the job done by FE Walter Dam on the Lehigh River to know that is true. It held back 30 billion gallons of floodwater and never topped the spillway. It had 22,000 cfs flowing in and it released only 250 cfs during the height of the flooding. It survived and offered downstream protection from a rain event like Hurrican Diane which it was modeled after when it was built. It saved downriver communities from much more serious flooding.

Once a dam has water going over the spillway the river is totally out of control. If you have a reservoir at 100 capacity and get a significant rain event the dam is absolutely useless, in fact it may be detrimental to upstream flooding.

Look at what East Sidney Dam did to Franklin NY. It backed the floodwaters all the way up into town, and at the height of the flood released all of the water that was flowing in contributing greatly to the flooding downstream on the Susquehanna. I'm not convinced an over filled Cannonsville didn't do the same to Walton, NY. When Cannonsville is at full pool the river is backed up to just a few miles below town. A 300 foot wide swath of water can't flow out of a 100 foot wide spillway as fast as it flows in.

If the water can't run downstream where else is it going to go?

Best Wishes,
Avalon