Line Choice

[scorpion1971]

Just wondering what size level line everyone uses with there rods? I have Tenkara Bums Hi Viz Orange Fluorocarbon . I also bought a 24' Sempai Furled line. I also have a couple of regular furled lines from other makers (Cutthroat,Streamside,Moonlit). I also have made a couple lines from the running line of a 2wt fly line. I have found the Sempai line to work the best. I can also cast this line in wind easier than the other lines. The next best furled line was the moonlit furled line. I just wish he made them in longer lengths.


Recently, I have been wanting to try casting lighter level lines. I have found this line size chart on Tenkara Talk:
# 1.5 (diameter .205mm = .008″)
# 2 (diameter .235mm = .009″)
# 3 (diameter .285mm = .011″)
# 4 (diameter .330mm = .013″)
# 5 (diameter .370mm = .0146″)
I have some 10# Berkeley Vanish Fluorocarbon which is .011". I have not tried this line by itself yet but plan too. I also plan to buy some 8# line to try. I know that regular fluorocarbon lines are not uniform in diameter the length of the line as tippet or even lines made for Tenkara.


Most of my tenkara use has been in retention ponds fishing for gills and bass. So the heavier level lines in longer lengths has been the best. When I switch over to stream fishing and trying for drag free drifts these lines tend to be to heavy, hence my reason to try lighter lines. For those of you that have tenkara rods, what lines have you used and what lines do you like the best? What lengths do you find to work the best? Looking foward to your replies.

[JohnnyV]

Level line diameters range from 1.0-5.0 with 3.5 & 4.0 kind of being the standard diameter. Tenkara USA rods seem pretty well balanced with the 3.5 or 4.0. As a very general rule, the longer the line the lighter the line. The caveat for that rule is that all tenkara rods don't cast really light lines (2.0-3.0) the same.

According to my understanding, several Japanese rod manufacturers design different rods specifically for different level line diameters.
The method these manufacturers use is that the faster the action, the lighter the line. 8:2 being the fastest action tenkara rod being produced right now is designed to cast the 2.0-2.5 lines. That is my current understanding of how the Japanese companies design their rods, I may be wrong and hopefully Chris Stewart will jump in here and correct me if that is the case.

Diawa, Shimano, Nissin, and Sakura all make rods specifically designed for level lines and rods in the same model and length for taper lines.
I am using a 3.6m Nissin Airstage Fujiru in 5:5 flex designed for level lines and a Diawa Sagiri with the 12-24 ft Sempai lines I make. The slightly stiffer tips cast my fluorocarbon taper lines better and both rods handle 2.5 - 3.5 level lines really nice. For me, these particular rods are my best all-rounders. I have also been using a Diawa Kiyose 43MF for these really long lines and it is working great. The faster action will cast my 28, 32 & 40 ft Sempai lines much better. When I switch from taper lines to level lines, I have to remember to speed up my casting with the lighter level lines. I really like 3.0 for long level line (20+ feet) with my Nissin and Sagiri rods and 3.5 for Tenkara USA rods.

Hopefully Chris Stewart will chime in on this. He has most likely spent more time than anyone in the US testing and evaluating tenkara lines with the widest variety of rods and manufacturers.

There are also subtle differences in casting techniques using long lines. You can't use the same rhythm, stroke speed, or hand/arm position that you use for 10.5-13 ft lines. I keep my elbow low and close to my body and slightly raise the tip of the rod at the beginning of the cast to lift the line off the water and the casting stroke is still about 12-1:00 with a very fast strong stop and on the forward cast, I lower the elbow slightly,keeping the rod tip up, as I bring the rod tip forward and as the line lays out I raise the tip of the rod slightly to decelerate the fly and make a soft landing.

Here is a video of me casting a 32 ft Sempai line with a 13 ft Diawa Sagiri: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBrY_lSF6EM&feature=plcp
The back cast is exaggerated because this is a pretty soft rod and in order to get that much line up, I had to load the entire length of the rod.

[CM_Stewart]

the faster the action, the lighter the line. 8:2 being the fastest action tenkara rod being produced right now is designed to cast the 2.0-2.5 lines.

Actually it is the other way around. The softer the rod the lighter the line it will cast. In order to cast a line easily, the rod tip needs to whip forward after you stop the forward cast. An 8:2 rod won't give you much whip so it needs a faster casting stroke and works best with a heavier line. A very soft 5:5 rod, on the other hand, will give you a pretty substantial forward whip with even a very light line. For both rods, a lot of the forward whip is caused by the inertia and momentum of the rod itself because a size 2 or 2.5 line is too light to load the rod.

Diawa, Shimano, Nissin, and Sakura all make rods specifically designed for level lines and rods in the same model and length for taper lines.

Daiwa, Shimano and Nissin do have models that offer different stiffnesses and lengths. Sakura doesn't. They do offer different lengths in each model, but not stiffnesses. Their Kongo models are only offered in 7:3 and the Seki Rei model is only offered in a 6:4.

[JohnnyV]

Actually it is the other way around. The softer the rod the lighter the line it will cast. In order to cast a line easily, the rod tip needs to whip forward after you stop the forward cast. An 8:2 rod won't give you much whip so it needs a faster casting stroke and works best with a heavier line. A very soft 5:5 rod, on the other hand, will give you a pretty substantial forward whip with even a very light line. For both rods, a lot of the forward whip is caused by the inertia and momentum of the rod itself because a size 2 or 2.5 line is too light to load the rod.



Daiwa, Shimano and Nissin do have models that offer different stiffnesses and lengths. Sakura doesn't. They do offer different lengths in each model, but not stiffnesses. Their Kongo models are only offered in 7:3 and the Seki Rei model is only offered in a 6:4.

Thanks Chris for correcting my info.

John

[Paul Arnold]

What is "Sempai line"? Is Sempai a brand name or a style of furling line? Probably the former, since it is capitalized, but all info on the subject welcomed here.

[moonlitflies]

This is very interesting Johnny. I am wondering why the use of Fluorocarbon as it is very heavy. I understand how a heavier line may be attractive to some people, but doesn't the extra weight make it more difficult to keep the line of the water, which would be more difficult with a longer line in theory. I am also curious as to what the diameter of the Fluorocarbon you are using is. Also can you explain the advantage of having so many seperate sections to the line?


Tight line,

Brandon

[JohnnyV]

This is very interesting Johnny. I am wondering why the use of Fluorocarbon as it is very heavy. I understand how a heavier line may be attractive to some people, but doesn't the extra weight make it more difficult to keep the line of the water, which would be more difficult with a longer line in theory. I am also curious as to what the diameter of the Fluorocarbon you are using is. Also can you explain the advantage of having so many seperate sections to the line?


Tight line,

Brandon

The formula and construction method was developed by Eiji Yamakawa a master tenkara angler and line maker. He taught me his method and that is how I make the lines.

The base sections are 1X
Mid section 2X
Tip section 3X

Each section is made of 3 strands of fluro in 4 ft lengths.
A 16 ft line for example is made of 2 sections of 1X, 1 section of 2X, tip section of 3X.
A 32 ft line is made of 5 sections of 1X, 1 section 2X, tip section of 3X.

Eddie's formula is not a closely guarded secret. The teacher/student arrangement we have is that he taught me how to make his lines and I promised him I would share his line making methods freely to all who want to learn.

I find the lines from 12-20 ft very easy to keep off the water. As the lines get longer all the way to 40 ft, there is really no way to keep all the line off of the water, there will be some line on the water even with 15 and 17 ft rods (yes I have access to a 17 ft tenkara rod).

The lines have a much smaller diameter than a nylon mono line of the same test rating and they slice through wind better than any other line I have ever tried.

The 12-24 ft lines are optimized for 5:5 rods in lengths of 12-14 ft. The 28, 32,and 40 ft lines work best with a slightly stiff 6:4 or 7:3 in 13-14 ft length rods.
Eiji spent over 10 years developing his line formula and it just plain works. These lines may not be for everyone but I sure like them and I hope that others will also.

John

[moonlitflies]

John
I do appreciate you sharring this and do believe in the process. I have no doubts as to the quality and read about the line and process. I am very impressed with this line from what I have read. I guess I am trying to figure out the bennifit of all the seperate sections being combined together rather than longer sections. What I mean by this is it simply that it is easier to do shorter sections, or does it actually transfer energy better than longer sections? I have heard alot of great things about you guys down in SLC and would love to be able to get out with you guys and learn from your much greater knowledge.

Cheers,
Brandon

[JohnnyV]

John
I do appreciate you sharring this and do believe in the process. I have no doubts as to the quality and read about the line and process. I am very impressed with this line from what I have read. I guess I am trying to figure out the bennifit of all the seperate sections being combined together rather than longer sections. What I mean by this is it simply that it is easier to do shorter sections, or does it actually transfer energy better than longer sections? I have heard alot of great things about you guys down in SLC and would love to be able to get out with you guys and learn from your much greater knowledge.

Cheers,
Brandon

Brandon,
Eiji gave me his line making machine when he was here for the 2012 Tenkara Summit in UT. The machine makes the sections in 4 ft lengths. Eiji must have come to the conclusion that 4 ft sections is the best formula for his lines. I never thought to ask why he chose that length. I'll ask him & get an answer for you.

Thanks for the kind comments but we are just humble tenkara fishing guides I don't know how much greater knowledge we really have. What we do have are friends in Japan who are the real tenkara masters. Eiji is one of several that we have regular and constant communication with so if you have specific questions about any traditional tenkara methods, ask me & I will get you an answer from one of the recognized Japanese tenkara masters. It is amazing to fish with these guys. Our friends all have over 25-30 years of tenkara experience. Spending a few days with them is truly humbling because until you get to spend time with a master of his craft, you just don't know what you don't know. I know how little I really know and that is why I am always pestering them for advise and information.

John

[JohnnyV]

moonlitflies;I guess I am trying to figure out the bennifit of all the seperate sections being combined together rather than longer sections. What I mean by this is it simply that it is easier to do shorter sections, or does it actually transfer energy better than longer sections?
Cheers,
Brandon

Brandon,
This is Eddie's answer about the length of the line segments:

"Hi John,
The answer is simple.
I furled the lines by hands before, and I had to reach both ends of the
line. So 1.2 m is the maxmum length I was able to furl.
Eddie"