About that color thing ...

[flybugpa]

Rock on John

[JeffHamm]

Great experiment John, and as always, a great report. Really enjoy seeing the waters people are getting to. With the new little one, I've not had a chance to get out at all this past year, and now I'm into teaching so not looking like I'll see water for some time (unless it involves a sink full of dishes). So, more experimentation is required.

- Jeff

[quivira kid]

Yellow I see as a hopper color... I see a lot of hoppers around here that would be imitated best with yellow foam. I would tie bigger hopper imitations in yellow and tan, smaller sizes in tan and chartreuse.... and consider it matching the hatch. Black I have found particularly effective on certain bodies of water, and also find a lot of crickets in the same areas... so more of a match of a food source than something oddball. What I was refering to in my first post was how something "outside the box" for you is a "realistic match" for me, using the same or similar patterns. Now I also know you aren't tying to match hoppers, but golden stones most of the time too, which makes a big difference!

So if all of the flies were equally effective, would you rather use a fly that is more of a match to the natural, or one that is super easy to pick out?

[JohnScott]

Yellow I see as a hopper color... I see a lot of hoppers around here that would be imitated best with yellow foam. I would tie bigger hopper imitations in yellow and tan, smaller sizes in tan and chartreuse.... and consider it matching the hatch. Black I have found particularly effective on certain bodies of water, and also find a lot of crickets in the same areas... so more of a match of a food source than something oddball. What I was refering to in my first post was how something "outside the box" for you is a "realistic match" for me, using the same or similar patterns. Now I also know you aren't tying to match hoppers, but golden stones most of the time too, which makes a big difference!

So if all of the flies were equally effective, would you rather use a fly that is more of a match to the natural, or one that is super easy to pick out?

Several years ago, on Tin Cup Creek, a Salt River tributary in SE Idaho, there was a hatch of those very yellow, almost chartreus hoppers. That is the only time I have seen any hopper that yellow. Most around here are part of the lighter browns, tans and milder yellows crowd. My standard FEB hopper / golden stone is tan, yellow, and some olive accents - that, and the size, is why it doubles so well for me.

I think bgreer hit the nail on the head with his comment "I do think that you can stack the deck in your favor by presenting a fly that's a close match for the real thing." But that doesn't mean that you have to be slavish and ignore other possibilities at times.

And occasional experiments can make fishing more interesting, especially, for me, if they knock down some prejudices and hallowed ( hollowed ) notions.

John

P.S. With the temps where they were yesterday, I might not have stayed with it as long as I did but for the experiment. That means I wouldn't have caught that steelhead. The reward is its own reward.

[Silvertip]

I find color plays a big role for the fishing I do. I fish for Atlantic Salmon and it seems light orange and brown (hackled Flies) are the most productive colors for dry flies primerly Bombers, on the Rivers I frequent. That being said other rivers seem more productive with green or Black. Fly size and presentation still are the most important factors, but in my 30+ years of fishing color also adds and advantage. I am not sure if it is the actual color or the silouette it creates for the fly itself that is the answer. Interesting topic though...

JK

[pittendrigh]

John,
.......... Well, I have been fishing spring creeks extensively since 1971 and during that time I have caught some very picky spring creek trout on some pretty outlandish patterns, especially dry flies.......
Neil

That was a distinction I tried to make. I do believe color matters--a lot--in the wet fly context. But less so in the dry fly context. I used to fish (and guide) the Paradise Valley spring creeks a lot. In July and August, in the late afternoon when the PMD hatch fades out, and before the evening sulfurs get going, most fishermen use ants beatles and tiny hoppers. If the fishing is tough (it always is in the late afernoon) they try to compensate by fishing smaller and smaller flies.

I do the opposite. I have caught more big fish in the spring creeks than I could ever count, fishing gargantuan hoppers along the weed bed lines. Yellow gray or orange. Those are the foam colors I have. I can't honestly say I've noticed one color works better than another.

During the PMD hatch, size is critical. But not so much pattern. Like many spring creek guides, if a fish refuses my Sparkle Dun more than once, I immediately switch to another PMD pattern. Same size but different profile. Same color too, more or less. But I'm convinced color is far less important than size. What they actually see, I think, is a dimple in the surface tension--and a not sharply-focused shape outline. And that's about it. Under the surface is a different story.

I know Byron doesn't buy the "change pattern if they refuse" idea. But he's more of an enthusiastic believer, while I'm more of a skeptical experimentalist. It is important to remember (at least for mayfly hatches) that the naturals are not at all the same. Cripples, emergers and half hatched, half drowned and drowned mayflies litter the surface of the water. And the dimpling fish take them all.

RE> Bing Lempke (note to Byron)...............the carpenters are hanging doors today. Installing baseboards. Final floor coat Tuesday. Then I can start to unpack. My CDROMs and DVDs are still all out in the garage. God only knows which box they're in.

[Byron haugh]

Thanks Pitt.
Where did you move from? Just change homes or did you move?

By the way, I do change patterns. As an example, when no one was hooking up on the Fork (but changing dry fly patterns), I noticed the fish were actually taking the caddis sub-surface, so I switched to a soft hackle and took a big fellow.

I will be back in the general area in mid-Sept. Any recommendations for that time period?

Thanks,
Byron

[pittendrigh]

I'm not moving..........remodeling. Adding on........................$new_house_size = $old_house_size + ($old_house_size/3);

September can be tough in Southwest Montana. My young friend Jeremy (from desert white water trips--he's younger than my daughter) came up here last September for his pre-wedding bachelor bash. I told him "high altitude lakes and streams." But he was determined to float the Yellowstone. It was tough last September. The Missouri is tough then too. Lots of infinitessimal mayflies. Too hot and early for streamers. The Henry's Fork might be a different story. Hoppers on the Yellowstone Park cutthroat creeks are supposed to be good. But the late summer crowds seem to last longer each year.

Finally. This the hard part. The Fish and Game is on the verge of closing the Jefferson river because of dangerously high water temperatures. If you release a fish at 70 degrees it's probably not going to make it anyway. If we don't get a break in the weather other rivers will follow, leaving only the tailwaters, reservoirs and high high altitude.

[Micropteris]

Here is a little trick you can use to aid in your color experimentation. There is one very easy way to decide if color is important or not. I know it is not the most user friendly method but it works. Use teams of flies. Let the fish make an instant decision when they have three or five flies to pick from at the same time.

Throwing flies one at a time while even at the same fish can give you feed back but there is not that instant menu of choice. A cheese burger looks good when there is only one to pick from and a hamburger looks good when there is only one to pick from, but when they both appear together at the same time which one am I going to eat first. Same size, smell, and proportions, but one has got that extra sliver of yellow or white goodness on it that the other doesn't.


If you see a pattern of color choice starting to emerge start changing the order or your flies in your team and see if the fish really are keying in on color or something else, like depth, speed, or closest line of sight.

I play with this a lot with my favorite quarry of striped bass. They can be as picky as the wariest clear water trout and at times as selective as an empty trash can.

I will tie the same pattern in the same sizes but with different colors and will throw three to five at once. Some nights fish have picked off the same color no matter which position in the team I put it, from the point to the head fly.

Some nights the fish will pick off a certain spot on the team no matter what the color I have as I keep changing the position of the colors. I think those nights the fish are keying on depth or speed of the drift more than color or pattern.

Some nights fish have come on random patterns and colors where it didn't seem to matter. Other nights I have seen fish come and inspect every fly I have in my box and leave without a nibble.

From my observations I have come to the opinion that sometimes color matters and sometimes it does not. The same can be said for any trigger that will make a fish strike. There are trends but very few hard fast rules.

[JohnScott]

...Use teams of flies. Let the fish make an instant decision when they have three or five flies to pick from at the same time.....

... to check for the fishies' color preferences. However, trying to fish three to five of these ...



... size 8 or thereabout dry flies at one time is way beyond my ability. And actually, the few times that I have fished more than one dry fly at a time, it seems neither one of them wants to maintain a good drift. There are enough mini-currents in the streams and rivers that I fish that it always seems one fly wants to drag the other, or both pull each other in undesirable ways.

Yesterday, the day started out with a lot of low, dark cloud cover and I was hoping to have the opportunity to experiment with the flies in some "low light" conditions. Unforturnately, by the time I got to the river, the clouds had blown off and it was a typical sunny summer day in Northern Idaho. The only low, dark cloud cover for the day came when a pretty dramatic lightening / thunder storm, which I had to sit out for about half an hour, rolled through the area.

The fishing was slow, at least as to the larger fishies. Fished four or five of the six color combos in the box and, again, it didn't seem to make any difference which color was served up. Most of the trouts were juvenile cutts and steelhead, but I did get a handful of nice cutts. Fished this place for only the second time this year ( in post runoff conditions ) and had several nice fish hit the fly.



For example...



It occurred to me that I haven't included pix from an earlier color experiment with my FEB skwala. It is usually tied in very dark, drab colors - dark browns and deep green olive with a dyed dark brown wing and speckled brown legs. Did a couple variations with fluorescent red and bright white and burnt orange and brown olive FEBs, natural deer hair, and off color legs ...





... and they did just as well as the standard pattern.

John