question for the pro's

[spoof85]

i have to ask,

how can i get involved with professional/commercial fly tying?

dont say practice... lol that much is obvious, what are the basic requirements? who should i get in contact with? (my local fly shop right? ) what is basic starting rate? is it quota based? etc.

i figure if there is any group of people i would look for guidance in the wonderful art of fly tying,this group is the one to ask.

hoping for posts,
spoof

PS- on another note, has anyone ever tried to make a, i will call it a "group" fly? i will try to paint a image of what i mean here....

a single fly in the center.... with multiple emergers, nymphs, possibly dry flies coming out in random directions.... kind of, "creating," a hatch... small, but separated enough not to get tangled on itself.
i dont mean "towing" a nymph 3' behind an emerger, just 1 fly.

[fishbum]

Get your federal Employer Identification Number.
You need this to pay your federal excise tax on the flies you sell. 10% due every quarter.

Get your state business license.
You need this to collect sales tax if your state has one.

Some wholesalers require both numbers to be on file before they will sell you material at wholesale.

Get your local business permits or licenses if required.

Set up some kind of bookkeeping/accounting system for your business. You need to keep good records. Remember those taxes you are required to pay and collect.

That is the big items to get you started. Seek out the guidance of a professional accountant that is familiar with small business.

[MR.JML]

Al and Gretchen Beatty have given the best advise as to Fly Tying business (not easy). Start off with your local Fly Shops and individuals who Fly fish (I did this as a kid, and in college I had Professors who were Fly Fishermen that said my paterns were great and I should sell them; they were my best customers)). You can use the internet (there is a site online that will help you connect with people as to selling your Fly patterns). Be knowledgable about your local waters, and even waters in other areas. There are many great patterns out there (but all they do is catch Fishermen and women; my wife likes hot pink patterns), but it always ends up to the final,. "The Proof Is On The Water". Will your patterns catch fish in the most difficult conditions ? The real crap shoot is sending samples to outlets like Orvis, Umpqua, Rainys, Feathercraft, Cabellas, Bass Pro White River, Gander Mouintain, etc. I am a Signature Designer for both Rainys and Feathercraft as well as I sell my Flies online, and to area shops and individuals. One local shop before it closed down carried all my patterns (and another tyer) exclusively. The patterns were Go-to patterns. When I camp and go to places like the Arizona White Mountains, I take boxes of my patterns (along with my Tying materials and tools) with me along with business cards (I have had boats, and other Float Tubers come up to my Float Tube while I am fishing wanting to buy what I am catching fish on. Rainys/Feathecraft have a yearly competition of tyers around the world. If your Pattern wins, it goes into production (a great way to get your foot in the door). Get your patterns to some guides (if they work great, word of mouth spreads).
Not always easy still. I have had Orvis sitting on a lot of my Patterns for a few years, and still not one has shown up in their catalogue (even though I was told that my patterns belong in an Orvis Catalogue) If I had waited for Orvis, I would not have anything in any catalogue). People like Al and Gretchen also sell tying materials. I very much depend on the internet, to help with my marketing. Doing Demos around the world is helpful (I have had a lot of invites... the only trouble is the money for travel comes out of your pocket). I have gotten my patterns into books and magazines......Market.....Market....Market. My friend Rick Takahashi said it best, you are not going to make a lot of money on this venture starting out, and it is going to be hard. I know one thing for certain. Where I am now has taken many years. At 55, I am the next generation Charlie Meck, Lefty Kreh, Bob Poovich (etc.). I now really have to step up to the plate since I am at that next level. The pressure is on. Always stay up to date with cutting edge techniques and tying materials. Always be grateful to those who mentored you and took you under their wing along the way.

[AlanB]

Its a huge question you've asked.

There is never going to be much money in it. At least not for you. There will be for the fly shop if you sell through them, and something in it for the tax man. When I was tying full time one of the companies, I discovered, was importing flies with a unit cost on arrival here of less than I could buy a hook for! There is no way you can compete on price against that. What you can do is compete on quality and service. I used to tie more flies for customers who tied themselves than didn't tie. As one said, "Yes I tie myself but, I know I couldn't tie that." Unless the customer knows what goes in to a fly, they will not pay more than they have to for cheap imports.

There are two approaches. Tie what the customer wants or tie a range of flies. The range of flies is probably the best way to go. That way you get away with a much smaller inventory of materials. That reason alone would be a good reason to start with a range of patterns.

Cost??? Well this is scary. Total selling price = Cost of materials + Cost of overheads + Your Wage + Tax & Duty. For each of these you will have to be very realistic.

Materials is simple enough, but there are the costs you don't think of. Lets say you buy a pack of 25 hooks for an order of flies. The hooks cost $2.50 (Just to keep the math simple) So what is your unit cost per hook? It sure as hell ain't 10c. Did you buy it from the fly shop? How did you get to the fly shop? How long did it take you to go to the fly shop? That was work so you should be paid for it. If you had to drive then there is fuel and use of the vehicle with its associated costs. Does your vehicle insurance know you use your vehicle for business? I don't know about where you are, but here that can double your insurance. Or maybe you bought them mail order. How much was the postage? When you really look at it you'll find that that hook you spent 10c on in the shop really cost 40 or 50c.

You will need to look at all the costs and overheads in this way.

Then you need to know realistically how many flies you can produce. I know from experience that I can not, realistically, tie more than 10 dozen a day. (I can tie more than this, but I wont. I end up growling at myself if I do.) Of course this will vary with pattern. I used to have a regular order of 100 Double Badgers a week for a fly shop. I could get these done in about 4 hours. If I didn't have a lot of work on I would take them to the shop and hang out there for a while. It made a nice easy day and I often picked up more work. Remember it isn't just how fast you can tie one fly. Start with a clear bench, set up, and tie, say, three or four dozen of a fly, then clean down. How long did that take? That's a more realistic time. Tying a fly in 5 minutes isn't the same as tying a dozen in an hour.

Your next step, I think, is to get hold of a copy of Production Fly Tying by AK Best. It is very, very good, and sets these things out for you.

Something I have learned is that being self employed you work 4 times for 1 lot of money. First you have to get the work. Then do the work. Then get paid for the work. Then account for the work. Any one of these can take as much time as any of the others. The customer only sees the work they want done, so that is what they think you should be paid for. If you are not very careful you will end up "working for nowt, and taking your own lunch", as my folks used to say.

Cheers,
A.

[NewTyer 1]

Maybe you can tie sets. Say I want a set of trout flies for the Shenandoah Valley, then you could call a fly shop say, Murry's and ask for the 5 best flies for that area and tie them. Figure out the cost of the set and set the price. The down side is, it would take lots of materials if you get people from all over. You could even tie up say 5 good all around bass bugs as a set, present it in a 5 chamber plastic box for presentation sake and sell them on *bay. That way you know what your tying and the materials you'll need which will keep the amount of materials needed to a minimum. This is most likely the way I would go. Sell on the bay, offer them on other forums, take them to local fly shops and you could also do sets of nymphs, dries and streamers all told maybe 20 differnt flies.

[spoof85]

boy did i ask the question broader then i thought! lol...

i fully understand the fundamentals of running a small company, i had a EIN #, million dollar coverage,(minimum for landscapers in PA is 750,000) i ran my own landscaping company for about 4 years, was pretty successful too, at the end of the 4th year the take home for myself and my partner was roughly 35000 free and clear..... we decided to end the company due to rising gas prices, not a good idea to run a diesel at 5.50/gallon. being the smaller company, we couldn't drop our prices as far as our larger competitors.... ended it before we got in debt....

i guess the wiser way to word the question is: whats the best way to get recognized, and what are some examples of good places to start? (you guys kind of answered this but im trying to keep the thread alive)

advertising for landscaping is easy, get a couple of lawns to cut, a few bigger jobs.... badda bing badda boom, your in...

i work for a small landscaper now, i dont know how much longer i can handle 730 to 9.... 6 days a week... i miss being my own boss..

[AlanB]

To keep your costs down if you tie sets just a card and some sticky back foam in a zip lok bag works fine. I get old supermarket "clip strips" and put a selection of sets on one, A small poster at the top and you have a ready made display. I find shops like them. Easy to display, less work for them to do.

As for getting known. The thing that works for me is writing.

Cheers,
A.

[pittendrigh]

Work with break even calculations. Add up what it would cost you to purchase the materials for 100 dozen Royal Wulffs. Think about overhead: advertising, marketing, material waste, postage and shipping. Then compare those figures to the price per dozen most fly shops are paying now.

If you still want to be involved learn something about website development. Travel to Kenya or Thailand and talk to tiers there. Or maybe spend some time teaching locals to tie. Exploitable groups might include unemployed stay-at-home moms or the wheelchair bound. The least attractive way to get commercially involved would revolve around a single all-in-one entrepreneur actually tying anything. It just doesn't add up.

[spoof85]

Work with break even calculations. Add up what it would cost you to purchase the materials for 100 dozen Royal Wulffs. Think about overhead: advertising, marketing, material waste, postage and shipping. Then compare those figures to the price per dozen most fly shops are paying now.

If you still want to be involved learn something about website development. Travel to Kenya or Thailand and talk to tiers there. Or maybe spend some time teaching locals to tie. Exploitable groups might include unemployed stay-at-home moms or the wheelchair bound. The least attractive way to get commercially involved would revolve around a single all-in-one entrepreneur actually tying anything. It just doesn't add up.

that would be the way to do it, but it is difficult to find anyone willing to learn anymore,(at least in my area) my fishing buddy as an example, he was gun-ho ready to learn right along side me, we bought our kits together for heaven sake... i think he has made a grand total of maybe 6 flies.. i try to get him to tie his own but he keeps fishing with mine. lol apparently everyone i try to get involved just says, "your the one with the knack for that, i dont know how u do it..." ... my response is always the same too... "let me show you" lol