Deer Hair Challenge. Black tips v non-black tips

[Byron haugh]

Hi,

I just tied this comparadun using deer hair from Blue Ribbon Flies. It has very short black tips.
I would like someone with coastal deer hair (without black tips) to tie the same fly (size 16 on TMC 101 hook) and send it to me. Un-treated Superfine dubbing. I will then place them very carefully in a dish of water and time how long it stays above the water line.

Please PM me and I will supply my mailing address.

Thank you,
Byron

[Allan]

Byron,

It seems we are conflicted in our definition of 'comparadun' and also in the rationale we both may have been given for the use of coastal deer hair. Now I say this in a good way. First, I consider a comparadun as what you've tyed but with either hackle fiber, microfibbet, or similar singular hair type tails. I view your tye, with a tail(shuck) made of zelon, antron, hi vis, etc. as a 'sparkledun', per Craig Mathews. Here's a way I consider viable in determining what a fly pattern is or how to quickly identify what it looks like (of course this method assumes the person hearing the information is familiar with various flies).
You're on the water and your friend is about 75 yards away and he's getting hit after hit while you're getting stymied. You yell out to your friend, nicely of course, "What are you using?" He yells back, truthfully you hope, "I've got on a size 14 olive comparadun". That information alone allows you to go to your fly box and pull out the same fly pattern that your friend means. Now, if after he said that, you switched and continued to get stymied while he continued to pick up fish you may wade over to look at his fly and see if you matched his description. If you see a 'zelon shuck' in the tail position, you now know he meant an olive sparkledun. For whatever reason, the fish are keying in on that specific pattern style with the shuck and not the comparadun with the 2 tail fibers you've attached to your tippet.
Now, as to the black tip vs. no black tip - I have no idea if one works(and even the word 'works' needs to be defined) better than the other. I believe the non-black tipped hair has a shorter taper whereas the hair with the black tip has a longer taper. Again, which is better I can only guess, although IMHO the non-tipped hair handles more easily. I have a feeling that deer from the same location that have been killed at different times of the year have different hair textures and characteristics.
I won't (can't) post photo of comparadun but PM me your snail mail and I'll send you a small piece of coastal deer. You can tye a nd post side by side.

Allan

[jszymczyk]

Byron,

It seems we are conflicted in our definition of 'comparadun' and also in the rationale we both may have been given for the use of coastal deer hair. Now I say this in a good way. First, I consider a comparadun as what you've tyed but with either hackle fiber, microfibbet, or similar singular hair type tails. I view your tye, with a tail(shuck) made of zelon, antron, hi vis, etc. as a 'sparkledun', per Craig Mathews. Here's a way I consider viable in determining what a fly pattern is or how to quickly identify what it looks like (of course this method assumes the person hearing the information is familiar with various flies).
You're on the water and your friend is about 75 yards away and he's getting hit after hit while you're getting stymied. You yell out to your friend, nicely of course, "What are you using?" He yells back, truthfully you hope, "I've got on a size 14 olive comparadun". That information alone allows you to go to your fly box and pull out the same fly pattern that your friend means. Now, if after he said that, you switched and continued to get stymied while he continued to pick up fish you may wade over to look at his fly and see if you matched his description. If you see a 'zelon shuck' in the tail position, you now know he meant an olive sparkledun. For whatever reason, the fish are keying in on that specific pattern style with the shuck and not the comparadun with the 2 tail fibers you've attached to your tippet.
Now, as to the black tip vs. no black tip - I have no idea if one works(and even the word 'works' needs to be defined) better than the other. I believe the non-black tipped hair has a shorter taper whereas the hair with the black tip has a longer taper. Again, which is better I can only guess, although IMHO the non-tipped hair handles more easily. I have a feeling that deer from the same location that have been killed at different times of the year have different hair textures and characteristics.
I won't (can't) post photo of comparadun but PM me your snail mail and I'll send you a small piece of coastal deer. You can tye a nd post side by side.

Allan

If your buddy is getting hit after hit on a fly which was the same in every regard except the "shuck" vs "2 tail fibers", I would say it is due to presentation not the tail.

Your story does however make a nice illustration of why naming conventions are so important- so many folks vehemently resist using the correct Genus and species name of the insects they love so much... yet five people can all be talking about what they call a "March Brown" (for example), and each have a different insect in mind.

[NJTroutbum]

Byron....I can probably tie up a patten for you, but your test would not show anything that is not a known already. In it's own right, the blacker the tips the more dense the hair....and there is a loss in bouyancy. Not to say it doesn't float just fine....it does. But if compared with a less dense variety, it is less bouyant. The choice to tie a particular pattern with a heavy-barred hair is not done with bouyancy in mind. That's why they make floatant. It's done for the mottling affect within the footprint, much like using a Cree or Grizzly hackle.

Ralph

[jszymczyk]

Byron- your test is only going to show you the differences in the two individual pieces of hide which were used, not a useful difference in the kind of deer every time all the time. Pieces of deer hair vary in characteristics to a huge extent, even if they are all labeled the same. That is why it is important to know what qualities you desire in the hair, and pick through the pieces at a shop until you find it. Hopefully you find 3 or 4 pieces and buy them all.

[Allan]

jszmczyk,

"Your story does however make a nice illustration of why naming conventions are so important-"

THAT WAS THE POINT! Bryon had written "comparadun" and yet the photo was of a 'sparkledun'. At least that's what they are known as in this neck of the woods and I suspect in the west too.

[Byron haugh]

Of course I know the difference between a sparkle dun and the more traditional "comparadun". I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. I was focused on the appropriate hair to use in ALL comparadun style flies, whether split tailed or shucked instead. The primary feature of the style of fly is the use of flaired hair.

How about we ask Craig Mathews which hair is the best for these flies???

[Jayatwork]

How about we ask Craig Mathews which hair is the best for these flies???

I am pretty sure he would recommend this http://www.blue-ribbon-flies.com/sho...deer_hair_2x3/ which I assume is what you used to tie that beautiful example.

I think the whole thing about black tips is just that the dark hair tends to be more solid and flairs less. So if you have no black tips or black tips that are short enough so you are not tying in near the black part, it should flair well. I would look for fine hair with very short black tips or no black tips.

[Byron haugh]

Jay,
I know what he would recommend. He and his staff have helped me go through their bins and look for the fine deer hair with very short black tips. Now, as the "home of the Sparkle Dun", why would they not have and recommend the very best floating hair for the fly? My guess is that they do..............
I think I will ask Craig if coastal deer hair without the short black tips would actually be better for flotation.
Will let everyone know from the inventor of the Sparkle Dun.

[Allan]

Of course I know the difference between a sparkle dun and the more traditional "comparadun". I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. I was focused on the appropriate hair to use in ALL comparadun style flies, whether split tailed or shucked instead. The primary feature of the style of fly is the use of flaired hair.

How about we ask Craig Mathews which hair is the best for these flies???

Byron,

I am certain you know the difference. However, you write about a comparadun yet have 2 photos of 'sparkleduns'. As far as the opinion about black tips, Sure. Why not? And while you're contacting Craig Mathews, I'll contact and ask Al Caucci the same question. Maybe we'll end up with diverse opinions in which case should we go to a third opinion for a tie-breaker? But feel free. Ask Mr. Mathews and report back.

Allan