Show me ANY bird which died due to eating lead deposited in the environment by a fly fisherman- or a spin fisherman for that matter.Originally Posted by cycler68
Show me ANY bird which died due to eating lead deposited in the environment by a fly fisherman- or a spin fisherman for that matter.
I said I would abide by all laws and regulations.
What's messed up is your question "why would they NEED to prove it" ... THEY would need to prove it because our society still has a memory of our citizens being innocent until PROVEN guilty. Obviously that concept is being eroded and trampled on more and more and more as we blindly and stupidly let laws crafted by "people" who don't have any idea about the real world.
"That is the reason a lot of messed up laws are enforced" You can't have it both ways, Fly Goddess! Your logic is that a law which YOU consider to be "messed up" is only enforced because of people sneaking around it??? The answer is to NOT LET OUR LEGISLATORS PASS BILLS INTO LAW WHICH ARE "MESSED UP" TO BEGIN WITH!! But I guess that's too much to ask in today's society- just fall in line and do what Pelosi said, "Pass the bill and THEN find out what is in it." That's wonderful.
Since only 4 million tons of lead are mined in the world per year, the US is saying 1 % of all lead mined in the world is lost in sinkers in the US. Bull. The only meaningful number would be the lead level in the fish in non-industrial areas. And I bet almost no lead in all fish comes from sinkers. And even less would come from flyfishers. (less than zero???). Oh well.
b
Bob
BUT, it is a law. Way beyond vote. Do NOT try to make look as though I am clueless please. The topic was Yellow Stone and The law is in effect and been that way for a few years, but you come back with "prove my flies have lead" As an adult, I would not pose the question at all. Nice switch of the words there.
You want to fight the law as unjust, then go for it, but as it is, again and been one for a few years IN YELLOWSTONE, no one should have to prove anything, just follow the law. By all means, if you are accused and you are innocent, you should not have to prove it.
You are directing your comment to someone who has had my waterways taken away from me, so trust me, I know how to fight for my right.
I see that there is passion on both sides of this subject. It came to mind that lead has been removed from paint,gas and solder for plumbing, probably more that I cant think of right now. Take it from paint so our kids can't eat it, take from gas to take it out of the air we breath. take it from our pipe joints so we dont drink it. I don't know what the scientific community knows about all the dangers of lead but it seems to me that taking out of fishing equipment is not disaster when we have alternate materials to use. Just my opinion.
You want to save a Loon?....or any other bit of wildlife? Stop the next housing developement or strip mall that goes in. Loss of habitat kills more than ANY lead in the environment. We are just the easier target for legislation and enforcement.
I would refer you to the writing of Gerald Durrell, founder of the Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust (now renamed) and their problems with lead poisoning in their ponds. To deny the effect of lead on waterfowl is not a tenable position. This has been pretty thouroughly hashed out in the debates about lead shot for waterfowl. For all that, I'm disinclined to ban lead completely. My personal choice is to use a lead-free alternative, but some of my best friends fish with lead.
Ed
P.S. Throwing in a link. I concede I only just grabbed it and scanned the site, but it might help out with people who are looking into this.
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/loons/
P.P.S. Another link: http://www.lake-link.com/forums/Camp...&reportsOnly=0
Last edited by EdD; 02-17-2012 at 05:11 PM.
Proud, lead lovin', worm dunker here.
You sure a tough customer to please but I'll try anyhow. I took the time, not very much time either, to find a map showing documented cases of lead poisoning in wildlife. It's here http://nationalatlas.gov/mapmaker?Ap...,CAT-wild-mort
Beyond that I don't really have much to say. If government studies of lead poisoning in wildlife complete with references and pictures don't convince you what chance do I have? My own personal view is I don't really see any downside to a total lead ban in fishing tackle because the wildlife would benefit right now. Fishing tackle has been shown to be the source of lead poisoning and there are documented cases of this as shown here; http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inf.../03JCF.W01.pdf
Last edited by cycler68; 02-18-2012 at 12:12 AM.
From the USGS Wildlife Health Center.
(Got to be b.s., a conspiricy, alien abduction. There is no such thing as lead poisoning. And FWIW, Elvis works at Walmart, and they really did save Hitlers brain.)
Concerns Rise Over Known and Potential Impacts of Lead on Wildlife
Mallard on right with characteristic drooping
wing, a symptom of lead poisoning
Photo by James Runningen
Seventeen years after nontoxic shot requirements were established for hunting waterfowl, attention has shifted to lead poisoning in other species. These include upland game birds, scavengers (such as vultures, hawks and eagles) and other waterbirds that are exposed to lead through the ingestion of spent lead shot, bullet fragments and fishing sinkers.
Lead is a metal with no known biologically beneficial role, and its use in gasoline, paint, pesticides and solder in food cans has nearly been eliminated. Although lead shot was banned for waterfowl hunting in 1991, its use in ammunition for upland hunting, shooting sports and in fishing tackle remains widespread.
The most significant hazard to wildlife is through direct ingestion of spent lead shot and bullets, lost fishing sinkers, tackle and related fragments, or through consumption of wounded or dead prey containing lead shot, bullets or fragments.
Dr. Barnett Rattner, USGS contaminant expert comments, "The magnitude of poisoning in some species such as waterfowl, eagles, California condors, swans and loons, is daunting. For this reason, on July 1, 2008, the state of California put restrictions on the use of lead ammunition in parts of the range of the endangered California condor because the element poses such a threat to this endangered species." Lead poisoning causes behavioral, physiological, biochemical effects and often death. While fish ingest sinkers, jigs and hooks, mortality in fish seems to be related to injury, blood loss, exposure to air and exhaustion rather than the lead toxicity that affects warm-blooded species.
Although lead from spent ammunition and lost fishing tackle is not readily released into aquatic and terrestrial systems, under some environmental conditions it can slowly dissolve and enter groundwater, making it potentially hazardous for plants, animals and perhaps even people if it enters water bodies or is taken up in plant roots. For example, said Rattner, dissolved lead can result in lead contamination in groundwater near some shooting ranges and at heavily hunted sites, particularly those hunted year after year.
Research on lead poisoning has been focused on bird species, with at least two studies indicating that the ban on the use of lead shot for hunting waterfowl in North America has been successful in reducing lead exposure in waterfowl. The authors found that upland game, like doves and quail, and scavenging birds, such as vultures and eagles, continue to be exposed to lead shot, putting some populations (condors in particular) at risk of lead poisoning.
Some states have limited the use of lead shot in upland areas to minimize such effects, and others are considering such restrictions. Environmentally safe alternatives to lead shot and sinkers exist and are available in North America and elsewhere, but use of these alternatives is not widespread.
To obtain a copy of The Wildlife Society technical review report, "Sources and Implications of Lead-Based Ammunition and Fishing Tackle on Natural Resources," visit www.wildlife.org. Also, the American Fisheries Society published an article on the known and potential impacts of lead in shooting and fishing.
Early Lead Poisoning Studies and Subsequent Ban on Lead Shot for Hunting Waterfowl
From 1983 through 1985, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service conducted a nationwide monitoring program for lead exposure in waterfowl. Samples from more than 8,000 waterfowl were collected on National Wildlife Refuges and analyzed at the National Wildlife Health Center. During the first two years of monitoring, the prevalence of ingested lead shot was highest in dabbling ducks at nearly 10%, with lower frequencies in dabbling ducks, geese, and swans. The study provided data that addressed phase-in criteria for nontoxic shot zones, but the impetus for the implementation of the nationwide ban on lead shot for waterfowl hunting was lead poisoning of bald eagles. In addition, of more than 2,000 bald eagles examined by The Fish and Wildlife Service from 1963 to 1986, 119 were diagnosed as having died of lead poisoning.
As early as the 1930s, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had made efforts to understand the complex relationships between lead poisoning and the use of lead shot for hunting. Lead poisoning is a slow-acting and debilitating disease that renders birds more susceptible to natural predators, and is often mistaken for crippling. Therefore, lead poisoning in wildlife and specifically waterfowl may not immediately be identified.
Lead Poisoning Effects on Birds
Lead poisoning is a toxicosis caused by the absorption of hazardous levels of lead in body tissues. Ingested lead pellets from shotgun shells have been a common source of lead poisoning in birds. Other sources include lead fishing sinkers, mine wastes, paint chips, bullets and other swallowed lead objects.
Clinical/Field Signs
Lead poisoning is considered a chronic disease in wild birds. Sick and dead birds are usually observed in low numbers, if at all. Large scale mortality due to lead poisoning occurs rarely. Birds are often mistaken for cripples during or after the hunting season. Signs include: lethargy, progressive weakness, green-stained feces and vent (cloaca) due to bile staining, reluctance to fly or inability to sustain flight, and weight loss leading to emaciation. Severely affected birds often do not have an escape response but will usually seek isolation and cover, making them difficult to find. Green-colored feces can be seen in areas used by lead-poisoned waterfowl.
Lesions
Waterfowl are often emaciated with severe wasting of breast muscles, impaction of the esophagus and/or proventriculus with food material, and an enlarged gallbladder containing thick, dark green bile. Green bile staining may be seen in the gizzard and/or around the vent. The gizzard may or may not contain lead fragments. The diagnosis is confirmed by detecting toxic levels of lead in tissues, including liver, kidney, and blood.
For more information on this or any other wildlife health issue, please contact the National Wildlife Health Center at 608-270-2400.
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