A Casting Question
I didn't want to hijack either of the other thread(s) on casting and I do have a question about the use of a strict overhand cast.
If you adhere to a strict 'overhand' cast, meaning 90* up/down, won't the motions of the backcast and the forward cast intersect and hit each other or hit the rod? I think many rods have been slammed by the line, the fly and split shot (or something else on the leader/tippet) and damaged by casting in a strict overhand casting motion.
Any comments about this?
Allan
Any cast executed properly will never do any damage to the rod. An overhead cast, done properly with the rod held at 90* will not be the cause of any problems. It is the mistake that is made when using this type of cast that leads to things on the line, beads, split shot etc. hitting the rod. The line will not intersect (tailing loop) itself either on the front or backcast 'if done properly". Having said that I would never teach anyone to do an overhead cast holding the rod straight up. I would have them hold it on a slight angle away from themselves for their safety and the rods safety, because everyone...did I mention everyone, makes a mistake sooner or later.
Originally Posted by Allan
Allan,
As Tig said, if you want to make the both the back cast and forward cast in the overhead plane but keep the loop very tight, you can tilt the rod to the side just a bit. That is what most overhead casters do. That slight tilt moves the pane of the rod just a bit off the axis of the fly line.
The most important thing is to not pulse or shock the rod with sudden acceleration that will lead to a tailing loop where the trailing line is below the rod tip. That can lead to the fly hitting the rod so remember smmooooth acceleration.
You can do several other things. If you are using a split shot or a weighted streamer for example, you can widen the loop in two ways. The first is to make a more convex rod tip path by moving your rod hand in a more convex path. The second way is to flip the rod tip down with the "micro wrist" described and shown in the video below. That will get the tip out of the way of the trailing line and fly.
Look at this video at about 50 second and you can see Gary pantomime the overhead cast by flip his wrist back at the end of the back cast stop and flipping forward after the forward cast stop. That controls loop size. Since the loop size is controlled by how much the trailing fly line is separated from the standing fly line attached to the rod tip, it is also the separation of the fly from the rod tip
Gary Borger - "Fly Fishing For Trout"
The other thing you can do especially when casting with split shot and several weighted nymphs, is to use use the oval cast where you take the rod back in the sideways plane for the back cast but make the forward cast overhead. This is also called the Belgian Cast or the constant tension cast. Since the back cast and forward cast are made in different casting planes, the lines will never cross. The cast in the video below is the Belgian cast.
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Regards,
Silver
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Then both of you agree that a "STRICT OVERHAND" cast may cause intersection and collision with the line and/or the rod.
Tig - "Having said that I would never teach anyone to do an overhead cast holding the rod straight up. I would have them hold it on a slight angle away from themselves for their safety and the rods safety, because everyone...did I mention everyone, makes a mistake sooner or later." - My point exactly!
Silver Creek - You give a few examples of non-vertical casting (btw, I don't use weights but I've heard this occurs when they are applied to the line).
1) "you can tilt the rod to the side just a bit. That is what most overhead casters do. That slight tilt moves the pane of the rod just a bit off the axis of the fly line."
2) "If you are using a split shot or a weighted streamer for example, you can widen the loop in two ways. The first is to make a more convex rod tip path by moving your rod hand in a more convex path."
3) "The other thing you can do especially when casting with split shot and several weighted nymphs, is to use use the oval cast where you take the rod back in the sideways plane for the back cast but make the forward cast overhead. This is also called the Belgian Cast or the constant tension cast. Since the back cast and forward cast are made in different casting planes, the lines will never cross. The cast in the video below is the Belgian cast."
The question I posed was specific: "If you adhere to a strict 'overhand' cast, meaning 90* up/down, won't the motions of the backcast and the forward cast intersect and hit each other or hit the rod?"
I don't think that, based on your answers, you disagree. The words you've used: "oval", "tilt", "different casting planes", "more convex path", seem to identify something other than 90*.
Allan
I think we mostly agree that a slight tilt is probably best. BUT when I said a "more convex rod tip path", that is entirely different than the micro wrist.
Consider the classic windshield wiper cast in which the beginner takes the rod from 9 o'clock to 3 or 4 o'clock for the backcast and then back again to 9 o'clock for the stop. That rotation of the rod through a long arc of greater than 180 degrees, leads to a very convex rod tip path and a very open loop, even if the rod is traveling along the 90 degree vertical plane to the horizon. So loop size is controlled by the both rotation of the rod through an arc which affects the path of the rod tip (convex, straight or concave) and the micro flip of the wrist right after the stop.
You would think that the rotation of the rod through any arc would always cause the rod tip follow an arc or convex path. This would be true IF the rod did not bend. The bending of the rod while the rod is rotating, shortens the "effective rod length" by bringing the rod tip closer to the caster's hand during the rotation. It is the balance of the rod shortening and the rod rotation that causes what could be a convex path into a straight line or sometimes even a concave tailing loop.
Since beginners do not properly accelerate their rods, they tend not to shorten the rod, and the rod tip traces that very convex rod tip path.
The tighter the loop the greater the danger of hitting the rod at or below the tip. Make a very open loop casting in the strict 90 degree plane and the fly stays well away from the rod. A 90 degree plane ALONE does not mean the fly is in danger of hitting the rod. There must also be a tight loop to bring the fly low enough to hit the rod.
Regards,
Silver
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy
Silver,
Points well taken and fair enough. I guess the point I wanted to make and for clarity I'll state it right now is:
The best casting motion for the rod, and for the well being of your casting arm at the shoulder, does not travel straight above at 90*.
Now you may argue that a casting stroke at that 90* angle is best for distance, accuracy, when using a weighted fly, etc. I simply believe that a 'strict overhand cast' is not the best stroke.
Respectfully,
Allan
The strict answer is no.
fishbum
Very good thread Gentlemen,
Nicely said Allan & Silver, your overview, insights and instruction is much appreciated.
I agree that the overhead cast is best done at a slight cant to left or right side depending..
I cast this way mainly for comfort and so the fly doesn't end up slapping me in the head.
It also makes for a better presentation at least in my style of casting.
Never had a rod hit although I be it can tangle and hit with enough weight added directly to the line
I do know I have had a large heavy bass bug slap me during a direct overhead cast. ouch!
One other thing to add to the canting of the overhead cast, a beginner can much better
see the backcast in order to set the timing and feel for the froward stroke to begin..
My limited experience demonstrating and watching has been that teaching to cast on this slight angle eliminates
quickly that buggy whip and snap that most first timers seem to start with.
Be safe
Last edited by Steve Molcsan; 07-01-2011 at 11:46 PM.
Relaxed and now a Full Time Trout Bum, Est. 2024
Gentlemen,
I forgot to add a couple of things to what I said about the 'strict overhand(90*) style' of casting:
1. I bet that less than 5% use that style consistently.
2. I bet that more than 95% use some angle consistently.
3a. It is more comfortable to cast by using almost any angle of less than 90*
3b. It takes less effort to cast using an arm angle of less than 90*.
3c. It is less of a strain and less harmful to your shoulder using an casting motion of less than 90*.
3d. You are safer from the fly and anything connected to the leader/tippet by being out of the 'line of fire' that a strict vertical' cast will create.
4. Because of 3a, b, and c, you can cast longer throughout the day, obtain greater accuracy, and (imho) cast further with a casting motion of less than 90*.
Just MHO. Then again I'm not a CCI so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt because what do I know.
Regards.
Allan
Bruce Lee once said, when he started the martial arts a punch was a punch...as he trained the punch became a complicated series of movements that needed dissecting....once he trained enough, it turned out a punch was just a punch. It went full circle. I stood on the river once and watch a guy cast, doublehauling and the loops were hypnotizing, everything was perfect. It was all so simple as he avoided obstacles, drying his fly false casting and dropped the fly where he wanted it to go.......A thing of beauty.
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