A Casting Question

[Silver Creek]

I think the problem is how you define an "overhead cast". If it is a strict 90 degrees then, yes few people use it all or most of the time. The probem with that type of definition is that to be consistent, you should define all specific casts to a specific "degree angle". When you do so, they will always end up being a minority cast. An overhead cast to me is one in which the back cast and forward cast goes overhead, that is above your head. Does it matter if the cast is canted? To me it doesn't. It is still an overhead cast.

The same goes for a sidearm cast. Must it then be defined as a true parallel to the horizon? Off by a degree and it is no longer a "true" sidearm cast. I don't think so. Whether you cant the rod a bit above or below the parallel, doesn't matter to me. In my view, it is still a sidearm cast.

The problem of hitting the rod tip occurs whenever the rod tip travels in a direct path back and forward. Some tilt does put gravity in your favor in that it will draw the line downward, but the best way to avoid hitting the rod is loop control.

[Steve Molcsan]

It's all about loop control.......big, small, open, closed, tight, loose, as well a person should be able to do them all without rod hits..

I call them on command casts... not original I know

also a cast of any type dose not need to be pretty to be effective... it just needs to feel good in your hand and mind

Mechanics of the casts always vary slightly with one's style.... Its about comfort as well, you have to find and stay in your zone...

I saw a photo of Loteck Joe casting. now that was pretty.. looked like he was in his zone having fun too!

Heres another thing I believe, if you stay with the exact mechanics of the cast as drawn in many fine casting books you are very likely
to have some fine looking casts and I have seen at various fly casting clubs many able to cast like a machine but unless your a Mel Keiger
or Lefty your likely not to enjoy casting much if you become a stiff machine. it will wear you out quickly..
Many beginners will notice fatigue while learning because of this...

Experiment and find your zone it is more enjoyable an soothing once you do...

[Silver Creek]

I found this recently:

http://www.working-well.org/articles/pdf/Fishing.pdf

"A study looking at pain ratings in relationship to casting style found no significant difference between casting style and shoulder pain. However,

Elbow pain was significantly less in casters who used multiple casting styles.

Elbow pain was significantly less for the overhead style compared with the elliptical style.

Wrist pain was significantly less for those who used the overhead style instead of either the elliptical or sidearm styles.

Wrist pain was significantly less for those who used multiple styles."

The take home lesson is that the overhead casting motion is better ergonomically than elliptical or sidearm casting for the elbow and wrist. The shoulder being a ball and socket joint is designed for rotation so none of the casting styles was any worse than the other for shoulder pain. I think the reason for elbow pain is that the elbow is a hinge joint and is designed to flex and extend in a single direction that is best suited to an overhead motion that places no rotational stress on the elbow.

Similarly, the wrist and the muscles of the forearm are strongest in varus and valgus flexion. That is why we hold a hammer and pound with a karate chopping motion rather than with the palm facing forward in a patting motion. Any motion of the wrist that requires a rotation using the patting motion will stress the wrist.

However, pain can still occur if you are locked into a single casting style, so mix it up.

[Bad Luck Larry]

I've read a number of times that you really can't cast on the same plane of forward/back strokes, 'cause you'll hit the rod and/or mess up your cast.
I believe (not terribly sure) Lefty Kreh actually puts a slight curve in his forward cast just to avoid the 'line' (YIPES!) of his backward cast: so, straight back cast, and then his forward stroke is a slight outward curve to the right to avoid the line hitting the rod.
As far as weighted nymphs and using sinking tips and split shot, I've always been told that you HAVE to throw a large loop in the line in order to cast it properly.

In short, backward and forward strokes can't occupy the same casting plane. (Make sure your head is not in the area either! Take it from me!HA!)

Practice and find something that works properly for you.

[Silver Creek]

I've read a number of times that you really can't cast on the same plane of forward/back strokes, 'cause you'll hit the rod and/or mess up your cast. .....

In short, backward and forward strokes can't occupy the same casting plane. (Make sure your head is not in the area either! Take it from me!HA!)

Practice and find something that works properly for you.

Larry,

I respectfully disagree.

A plane is defined as a flat two dimensional surface. You will notice that the definition does not include or define a tilt or radial orientation of that plane within a three dimensional space.

Therefore a plane can be in any orientation. It can even be parallel to the ground with the cast being sidearm. If you are standing on a high bank, or an elevated casting boat platform, the rod could be tilted way down with the plane on the tilt of that cast.

Secondly, one of the key points to an efficient cast is to have the rod tip move in a SLP or a Straight Line Path. A Straight Line by itself does not define the plane it lies on. A straight line in a three dimensional space can lie within an infinite number of planes that rotate round the axis of that line.

Go to the Wikipedia reference above on a "plane" and you will see an illustration of two planes in a three dimensional space. So an intersection of two planes forms a straight line. An infinite number of planes can be placed through that line because a plane by definition does not have any thickness or else it would be a three dimensional object.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In...ing_planes.svg

So the rules of spacial geometry disprove your post if the SLP theory of casting is correct.

I think what you mean is an overhead vertical plane because then gravity come into play. I think you meant, "I've read a number of times that you really can't cast on the same VERTICAL plane of forward/back strokes, 'cause you'll hit the rod and/or mess up your cast."

But that is also wrong. The key is loop control. From Jason Borger's book on The Nature of Casting, loop formation is controlled by tipping the rod tip below the SLP of the fly line with a wrist flick at the stop. The degree of this flick (called the micro wrist) by Doug Swisher.

At the stop, the inertia of the cast and the unbending of the rod causes some overshoot so that the rod tip flexes down out of the way of the following line. The degree of that flex depends on the energy (velocity) in the cast. The higher the velocity, the greater the forward and downward flex of the rod at the stop. If the rod tip rebounds back before all the line has passed, the line can hit the rod.

What the micro wrist flick does to to drop the rod even further so the line cannot hit the rod even as the tip comes back up. See the following illustration from Jason's book.






I wrote a rely to a question about tailing loops on another fly fishing BB that further explains the vertical plane casting stroke as the foundation for other casts.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/fo...e-crazy-3.html

[hardhat]

I do not beleive that a rod in motion can maintain a perfect plane. Even a 1 degree difference caused by wind, cant, twist, flex or pull of the line will prevent collision. How rods and blanks are made also would prevent this occuracnce.

[Bad Luck Larry]

Larry,

I respectfully disagree.

A plane is defined as a flat two dimensional surface. You will notice that the definition does not include or define a tilt or radial orientation of that plane within a three dimensional space.

Therefore a plane can be in any orientation. It can even be parallel to the ground with the cast being sidearm. If you are standing on a high bank, or an elevated casting boat platform, the rod could be tilted way down with the plane on the tilt of that cast.

Secondly, one of the key points to an efficient cast is to have the rod tip move in a SLP or a Straight Line Path. A Straight Line by itself does not define the plane it lies on. A straight line in a three dimensional space can lie within an infinite number of planes that rotate round




I wrote a rely to a question about tailing loops on another fly fishing BB that further explains the vertical plane casting stroke as the foundation for other casts.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/fo...e-crazy-3.html

Well.....

Folks, in light of the weight of the evidence against me, please disregard everything I said previously! HA!HA!
WOW!

(no hard feelings taken, Silver....cheers!)