New UltraWave Blank

[Silver Creek]

I don't think I have "overstated" anything.

What I have done is to describe what happens during a cast related to differential stiffness or flex characteristics of the rod during the cast. The presumed advantage of this rod is the "power" on the forward cast because of the fixed curve of the rod. The deleterious effects of the an unbalanced rod is directly related to the degree it is unbalanced. So I neither under or overstate the effects. Any perceived addition of power to the forward cast will be felt as an equal loss of power on the backcast.

You cannot fool the laws of physics. It is what it is, and to get a perceived "advantage" on the forward cast is to cause a perceived "disadvantage" on the backcast.

Secondly, the mass or weight of a fly rod is a detriment to the cast. The heavier the fly rod, the greater the proportion of the work put into the cast goes to simple moving the rod and not moving the line. Secondly, when one is not casting but fishing, you need to support the weight of the fly rod. Both cause more difficulty in fishing for someone with a disability. That person has to work harder while both casting and fishing. I see no advantage to giving a wounded warrior a rod that is almost a third heavier than a comparable rod.

What is unknown to me is whether this rod is the distribution of mass along the fly rod, ie., whether this rod is tip light or tip heavy. Tip heavy rods are more difficult to fish.

[newflyguy]

Thank you flyguy66. I think you've told me that I can conceivably get a little more distance up close. I've now read the above replies to this string and they have raised another question for me. Some of you have cast this rod and some of you have not. I have not obviously. As a matter of fact I've not cast as many different rods as most of you. I've been involved in fly fishing for some time but don't get a chance to do it very often so I'm interested in what you all have to say about such things. I'm also interested in trying things that make my life simpler. Question. Do many people do such things as rotational movements and curve casts? Question 2. If a guy can learn to do these movements if necessary with most any rod? I'm not trying to make trouble here, I'm just trying to understand about some of these things. If this rod can shoot more line than most rods (I believe back there somewhere one guy called it amazing) how can it lose power on the backcast? Isn't this where the power to shoot line comes from? The two statements seem like a bit of an oxymoron to me. I assume from this talk that the rod is curved in the vertical plane so that it transfers the most power in that plane. Hence the tip to keep the reel pointed at the target. Is it possible that the rod transfers way more power in this plane than any other so that when one gets off plane it acts more like anormal rod instead of this power rod? Last questions. Can anyone tell me what 4 piece rod weighs less than three ounces. I've never seen one. 3.7 ounces seems pretty light to me. What should an average 2 piece rod weigh? If someone makes a 4 piece that is less than 3 ounces wouild that mean their 2 piece is like closer to 2 ounces? I didin't think that was possible. Sorry for all the questions.

[WarrenP]

Here is an answer to your question on what rod weighs less than 3 ounces: These are the TFO BVK fly rods and I own the 5 weight and the 7 weight and really enjoy using them and would recommend them. BTW, TFO is a sponsor here.....



TFO 9 foot 4 piece 5 weight weighs - 2.9 ounces
TFO 9 foot 4 piece 6 weight weighs - 3.0 ounces
TFO 9 foot 4 piece 7 weight weighs - 3.1 ounces
TFO 9 Foot 4 piece 8 weight weighs - 3.2 ounces

The TFO BVK rods that are less than 9 foot long weigh even less. You need to check them out......

[flyguy66]

Look. Using your own argument (which I don't argue with, btw), if you take 2 identical backcasts; but 1 is made with a straight fly rod and 1 is made with an Ultrawave (let's leave everything else equal in this hypothetical example), and then both are followed with identical forward casts, you will get a longer cast out of the UltraWave. I realize that you are saying that to get two identical backcasts in this example the UltraWave would require more energy input into the backcast. I do not believe this is true - after making maybe 100 casts with 2 different prototypes and comparing notes with a couple of other rod-builders and casting instructors who have done the same. The curve is a VERY shallow sine wave.

I said that you were over-stating things because the lower the amplitude of the sine log, the less pronounced all of this stuff we're discussing becomes. Conversely, the greater the amplitude, the more pronounced the advantages/disadvantages. This too is an immutable reality. But what becomes significant is WHERE the Y value crosses the X axis along the 9' of the blank and the mandrel taper of the blank. It is this mix that gives the rod its performance properties. It is this mix that allows you to "tune" your instrument to the laws of physics we've been discussing in order to try and achieve your desired outcome. This is the "magic" of all fly rod design, whether along a flat X axis taper or one with amplitude. I'm sure this is the key to the UltraWave's performance. I don't know the specifics.

I can tell you that when I and a good friend who builds very fine rods and is a great casting instructor cast that first prototype a couple of years ago we both got an extra 10-30' of shooting distance out of it on our best distance casts. For each of us, that represented a 10-20% improvement in distance. Both of us noted that it was slower on the backcast. That is true. But neither of us felt that it required more effort.

That's all I can say.

TFO BVK's? I own 8 of them! That's my favorite round rod. You cannot beat them for the price.

Now, to try and answer the other questions...

Spey casts - spey is a different style of fly casting typically done with a two-handed rod and used for fishing large rivers with large flies. However, it is far more versatile than that. It can be done one-handed with regular single-handed fly rods and you can catch just about any sort of fish casting just about any type of flies. Spey casts all use a water anchor for the forward cast, much like a roll cast does. Thus, it is not uncommon to rotate the reel out of line with the intended target and/or to use curved paths of the rod tip during casts.

Curve casts - these are considered advanced presentation casts. Frankly, not many fly anglers can use them effectively when fishing. In fact, not many of the people who can demonstrate them can actually use them effectively when fishing (in my experience). But they are just like any other fly cast: if you practice them correctly and often enough, anyone can use them when they are called for. They're actually quite handy!

I think I answered your question about the backcast and the UltraWave above.

There are plenty of 5wt 9' fly rods out there that weigh in around 3 oz...give or take a tenth or two of an oz. Can you feel a tenth of an oz? Not even after casting all day! Furthermore, there are far more important factors than the scale weight of a fly rod. The balance between rod and loaded reel is going to play a much bigger role in the FELT or SWING weight of your tackle. And that is what will wear you out or let you fish all day in comfort. You also need to understand that the more line you have in the air beyond the rod tip the heavier your swing weight is. Another way to say this is that the weight of the fly line beyond the rod tip plus the load it puts on the rod during the starts and stops gets added to your motionless swing weight. So the more line you try to carry in the air, and the more false casting you do, the more "heavy" any rod is going to feel. The best way to reduce the workload to your casting arm is to make far fewer false casts, learn to shoot line more efficiently, and never aerialize more line during false casting than absolutely necessary.

Now if you do those things and add to this a well-balanced rod/reel combo you should be able to fish as long as you want to without too much fatigue. Do I think you would find an UltraWave rod useful? Only if you have a very fundamentally sound casting stroke. That's the drawback of the rod to me. It isn't very forgiving of casting flaws and you MUST teach a novice/intermediate caster to watch their backcast when they're casting it. As Silver said: the timing of the backcast and forward cast are not the same. It's not an intuitive rhythm. You have to feel it and/or watch it. And I'm a firm believer in using as many senses as possible during the learning process. So the bottom line is that I think you can learn to make that 50' cast without spending $400 on an UltraWave. For one thing you said something about "muscling it out there" when you first mentioned that. Well, you NEVER "muscle" a fly cast. It's all technique. It's pure finesse. The second you try to apply force to the problem you are screwing up. You'd be far better off spending $100 with a good casting instructor than spending $400 on a fly rod. And don't feel bad. That's true for almost everyone who owns a fly rod and isn't getting the desired results out of their casting.

[newflyguy]

Hey Guys, thanks, I think. Lots of food for thought. I found their site and since they have a toll free number I may give them a call tomorrow and try to get some information from them. Hopefully they'll be wiling to share their view of all this.

[Denny]

As I posted in #4 of this thread http://www.dorber.com/UltraWave.html which is dorbers web site, info on the new Wave rod.
They are a Sponsor and can be found on the Sponsors page which will also give you a phone # should you like to talk with Jeff or Ray.
In response to some of the above comments above which I note were made by casters having never had hands on this fine rod. Personally, I have no problem on the backcast. I almost always double haul and on my back cast the rod loads very fast. In fact I always slip some line out on the back cast. Some have told me I should Never?? do this. I do. Then when I stop on the front cast and complete my double, the line shoots as if I had a shooting line on it. I should care less about distance casting for myself. I can and do cast any of my rods out to 65 to 85 feet with no problems. This rod does handle the wind nicely and easily. Any caster can more easily cast farther than they could expect with most other rods.
Not talked about by others is how easily one can do a roll cast. I can easily pick up 60 feet of line and drop my fly gently where ever I desire. I do not need to reel in to 35 feet. Today I mostly fish from my toon. It does well sitting close to the water and it does not wear me out and I am getting old.
Some may not understand the curve thing of this rod. On a 2 pc rod, the butt section curves down over the guides. From the ferrule it curves up to the tip. These two curves along with the placement of the multiple guides (& 2 strippers) do help the line shoot nicely out the over sized tip top. We have Kenny's Wave rod he built a year ago. We manage to fish at least one day per week and more often a couple. My new Wave rod will be completed for our opening day. Sure wish Winter was over. I have had my fill.
Ray has put a lot of thought, effort, testing into this Rod. I do feel he has hit on something. So do a lot of other manuf. cuz he had to put a patent on it. That alone might tell you something.

[dpenrod]

to denny and others who have used the rod, how does it feel with a fish on? to me, one of the most satisfying things about this sport is the "feel" of a fish on. i'll steal this line from a book, but i "just love those beautiful vibrations".

[Denny]

I have not fished it as much as Kenny, I have seen him put several larger fish into his net, easily. I would say it is one of the better fish handling rods I have seen. Yes, I also love those beautiful vibrations.

[kenfishbum]

I have had my wave rod and fished it for about a year. I do not know or really understand all the technical stuff in the design of this rod.
But I do know how it casts and handles fish. As to the casting it has increased my distance by around 25' with no increase in effort.
You can pick a lot more line up off the water and put it right back out with out false casting. It is great for rivers, but I really like it
for fishing from a belly bout or pontoon boat. As for feeling strikes and fighting fish it is about as sensitive as any rod of the same
weight and length. I have caught fish 8" to 23" and enjoyed every one of them. My wave is a 5wt but casts a 6wt wf line best.
It is a real good rod on windy days. Like I said I don't know or really care about the technical stuff, I just know what I like and
I really like the rod. Yea, It gives my good vibrations.( the beach boys)

[Fox Statler]

If you load a long bow and a recurve bow both with 100 pounds of force, the recurve bow will shoot the arrow faster and farther. Now what does this prove? It proves that the recurve bow is more efficient ... but efficient in What?? The recurve bow is more efficient at releasing the kinetic power stored in the limbs of the bow to the string (fly line) and then the arrow (fly). The resistance to your fingers, arm and shoulders is the same when loading both bows. Just as the recurve bow does not wimp out when loading the bow in the backwards direction (back cast), neither does the UltraWave.

Remember the back bone of any blank is stiffer when bent in one direction when compared to another, even if this difference in very small. Most good rod builders put the guides on the stiffest side of the blank to enhance the forward cast.

What cast, other than those of spey, requires the caster to turn the rod sideways, out of the plane of the back bone and guides?? Quality fly rods are built with two things in alignment, the back bone of the rod and the guides. Quality fly rods are not built to cast in any other plane. The caster, that does cast sideways, is abusing the guides and the blank at the same time. Just as a straight blank tries to twist itself to the plane of the back bone and guides, so does the UltraWave. However, the UltraWave tries a little harder to make a good caster out of the sideways caster than the straight rod. Also remember that the UtraWave has two curves, one in the opposite direction of the other, thus one is offsetting the other. If the problem of twisting is so prevalent as Fly Fisherman Magazine say it is, then why didn't just one of these individuals and others, that have testified to its quality, discover this. As I have said before, "An editors evaluation of a fly rod can be influenced by more than just the performance of the rod."

Mr. Purnell is entitled to his opinion ... But, if he is proven wrong, by anglers who have cast and fished the UltraWave, how will this reflect on his evaluation and his magazine. I have no doubt the UltraWave will prove itself to anglers, whose evaluation I prize greatly. I can't say the same for editors.

It's All Fly Fishin',
Fox Statler