Hate to belabor this...but that's what I meant...you are talking about the tension during the twisting/furling process and Jack is talking about any tension that is applied when manually laying out the loops on the pegs....right Jack?
Hate to belabor this...but that's what I meant...you are talking about the tension during the twisting/furling process and Jack is talking about any tension that is applied when manually laying out the loops on the pegs....right Jack?
Assuming you are correct in your interpretation, sufficient tension to keep the threads down the pegs should be sufficient. When I make my final terminal loop, I do try to make it about 3/8' shorter that the actual length necessary to get it over the last peg (furling hook) to ensure that there is no 'sag'. I then remove the loops from all pegs and attach things to the tensioner hook, at which time I stroke the the threads in both legs in an effort to equally distribute the tension both on both legs, and between 'steps', before I start twisting; another Skip Shorb trick.
aged sage
Interesting thread, Duck.
On your first question - not necessarily - because if you apply enough tension and twist hard enough, you can break the leader and then it is not at all effecient.Originally Posted by ducksterman
Would you believe that I was experimenting with Kevlar tying thread one time and did exactly that - broke it, without damage to my furling jig. Subsequently, I did read that while Kevlar is extremely strong, it doesn't take to twisting all that well. Otherwise, I do believe a "tighter" twist is preferable to a "looser" twist. My thought is that the more twists there are, the more mass you are building into the leader at any and every given point, which should make it perform ( transfer energy ) better and be stronger.
On your second question - I've mentioned before that I prefer to use formulas, either that I got from my original instructor or that I have developed myself for different lengths and configurations, and a couple for different materials, although I tend to stick to the Danville 210. I presently furl ( both twist and furl ) under power, using a variable speed and reversible Ryobi battery powered drill. I have a mark on the whatchamadinger and twist / furl at a speed low enough that I can count the revs.
Really enjoyed Frank's description of what happens as he twists / furls his leaders under power. It is almost exactly how I would describe what happens using my jig. My tip end set up is quite a bit different than Frank's, and I always incorporate a tip ring in my leaders.
Instead of taking wraps around a tip end post, I take the wraps around a hook on a post that rides on a carriage. Two benefits. First, after I've finished laying out the leader material ( and I use quite a bit of tension on the thread as I do so ) and removing the posts, I can move the carriage away from the butt end far enough to take up any slack that is caused by the wraps around the posts.
Second, the hook facilitates incorporating the tip ring. Just slide the tip ring down one leg, remove the leader from the hook, slide the tip ring over the hook, take up any slack developed in that process, and you are good to go. One other advantage to incorporating the tip ring - there is no resistance caused by having the tip end "fixed" during the twisting and furling process. The strands are free to move in, around, through ( whatever word suits you best ) the tip ring, which I think improves or enhances uniformity between the legs during twisting.
John
The fish are always right.
I think John and I ultimately wind up doing essentially the same thing, relative to the tip end; except that I don't use the rings. I set up my loops using a tippet post, as mentioned before. After things are completed for the layout, I transfer the tippet loop to the hook on my tensioner, and then work the loops between my fingers in an effort to have the tension evenly distributed in each section. My tension weights keep things under constant tension once I switch the tip end to the tensioner hook.Then I start the twisting process. I both twist and furl at the same speed, which is at about 3200 rpm, as determined using a tachometer.
aged ssage
We 3 are pretty much doing things the same with some minor variations. My power source is a high torque one speed motor with 3 hooks...900rpms....going to just before breakage the way I do I must use a constant repeatable speed. Last year I was using a 704rpm gear system.
My tensioner is essentially the same as Franks and my method is like his...milking to equalize tension and all that...because of the tendency of the legs to rotate I have incorporated a grooved 2x4..[keeps the legs horizontal from the power hooks also]...don't know if you remember Frank but that came from a suggestion you made. I assume that's why you use the traveling platform, John?
Frank...you said..."I usually remove the butt loops first, and immediately make the 'lariat' loop of a Shorb loop before removing the tippet end from the tensioner hook."
Not sure I understand that. I do my Shorb's the way Jim Williams demos in his thread. Do you do them differently?
ducksterman:
As I learned how to make them directly from Skip Shorb, I have never bothered to look at Jim's method. Thus, I cannot compare what I do to how Jim does it. Sorry.
What I do is, after I have completed the furling, I insert my nitpicker through the two loops on the end of each leg at the furling hook, and make the first loop in the Shorb loop process, which Skip refers to as making the 'lariat' loop. I put a large paperclip through this loop. I next put a large paperclip through the loop on the tensioner end before making the 'lariat' loop, to which I attach a 6oz egg weight. I have a pulley mounted in the ceiling of my garage with a 1/4' nylon rope suspended through it, with a dog leash clip on the end. I hook the leader to the leash clip by the paper clip on the butt end and haul it up until things clear the floor by about 6 inches, and let the thing twirl away as it relaxes. Once it has relaxed, I take it down and complete the Shorb loops later.
While the first one is relaxing, I string the next one. I will make several before finishing the Shorb loops.
I hope this makes sense.
aged sage
Last edited by aged_sage; 01-19-2011 at 08:35 PM.
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