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Thread: Glue and wax

  1. #11

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    I remember there being a recipe for tying wax in the following book:

    Fly-Tying: materials, tools, technique by Helen Shaw (1963)

    I found the book at our local library, but havn't looked at it in a while. If I remember correctly, the hard wax was partially dissolved in some mineral spirits to make a past (small ammounts prepared, the rest left as a hard chunk). Then she would use a small dabb of this to prepare the thread for dubbing.

    Interesting book, pre bobbins and most of the other tools we take for granted now. But solid techniques for what I noticed.

    BTW - take this for what it's worth, I just started fly fishing and tying this past spring, so my opinion is based on a very shallow pool of experience.
    David

    Everyone must believe in something, I believe I'll go canoeing. -HDT

    Flyfishing is a drug. It's addictive, it can be expensive, not many others will understand it, it is possible to get others hooked, and everyone has a favorite place to get their fix, but there's no hangover in the morning (from the fishing at least).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay View Post

    Would love to hear about your applications for using the wax and why you feel it is better to use the wax than not use it. I'm keeping an open mind here and want to learn something new. So if you are willing to share ....
    I tie mostly with silk thread, which doesn't come waxed. If you don't wax at least some before tying, you're going to have to make six or more wraps just to get the thread started without slipping. (Silk is smooth as, well, silk.) With wax, two at most. It also cuts down the number of turns needed in a whip finish. Waxed silk is a real pleasure to tie with. And if you ever try tying without a vise, you'll quickly see the utility of wax.

    Since most other tying thread comes pre-waxed, you're probably already using wax without considering the fact.

    I'm somewhat agnostic when it comes to using wax for dubbing.

    As someone else mentioned, many traditional thread bodied patterns (Greenwell's Glory comes immediately to mind) rely on the fact that wax changes the color of the thread. No wax, wrong color.

  3. #13
    Bass_Bug Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clay View Post
    .......On glue, I have settled on making my own rubber cement by mixing shoe goo and Toluene. I mix it outside and I don't try to over expose myself to the chemical. I probably have more exposure danger filling my gas tank repeatedly than making the glue. The glue dries fast, soaks into the thread easily and adds to durability.
    Clay, When you say 'rubber cement' do you mean like Flexament or Flex Seal? I ask because Shoe Goo and Goop (both pretty much the same product from different manufactures) are both Toluene based products. Flexament is just thinned down Toluene. To me "mixing shoe goo and Toluene" is like mixing water and H2O. Am I missing something here?

    Sorry guys, not meaning to digress from the wax/glue topic.

    I like the wax idea to prevent thread avalanches as Eric put it. I'm wondering though if you wax the thread at the head, will paint/lacquer stick? Many patterns get a painted head with painted eyes. When painting heads like there's no need for head cement, but these bigger heads are the worst for thread avalanches.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass_Bug View Post
    I like the wax idea to prevent thread avalanches as Eric put it. I'm wondering though if you wax the thread at the head, will paint/lacquer stick? Many patterns get a painted head with painted eyes. When painting heads like there's no need for head cement, but these bigger heads are the worst for thread avalanches.
    If you're using lacquer there's no problem, at least with the lacquer and wax that I use (both made by Veniard). Remember that you're probably using pre-waxed thread already anyway.

    One potential problem with finishing the head and a heavily waxed thread is that pulling the whip finish tight will scrape wax off and cause a little lump of wax at the knot. This doesn't make for a smooth finish; you'll want to remove it before applying paint or lacquer.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass_Bug View Post
    Clay, When you say 'rubber cement' do you mean like Flexament or Flex Seal? I ask because Shoe Goo and Goop (both pretty much the same product from different manufactures) are both Toluene based products. Flexament is just thinned down Toluene. To me "mixing shoe goo and Toluene" is like mixing water and H2O. Am I missing something here?

    .
    when you mix shoe goo and toulene you get thin shoe goo. Yes you can buy the equivalent in little bottles, but its cheaper to make your own.

    Mixing Toluene and shoe goo isn't like mixing water and H2O, as the toulene in shoe goo is the stuff that keeps the other chemicals from turning solid. the toluene is only one of the chemicals in Shoe Goo. where as water is water no other chemicals.

    Eric



    Eric
    "Complexity is easy; Simplicity is difficult."
    Georgy Shragin
    Designer of ppsh41 sub machine gun

  6. #16

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    Toluene is the solvent....and incidentaly not the only one that will work.

  7. #17
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    The other men filled in wonderfully in my absence. Even in the bottle if it starts to thicken just a little more Toluene and back to the thickness or thiness that I am after. It is much cheaper and I have found nothing less expensive. Besides the Shoe Goo straight fixes waders and wading boots too. Don't try that with Fleximent

    Thanks everyone for the good comments on why you use the wax. I know that it is a traditional product and it was a nice reminder.

  8. #18
    Bass_Bug Guest

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    Ok, you've got me throughly confused. If Toluene is the solvent, then adding more Toluene to Shoe Goo which lists Toluene as the main ingredient (and then just petroleum distillate as the only other ingredient) does what? Make it thicker or thinner?

    LeRoy Hyatt & Dave Engerbretson have repeatedly said that Shoe Goo and Goop, both Toluene based products, when thinned make Flexament and Flex Seal.

    So if you have Toluene as the main ingredient, how do you thin with the same ingredient? Tell me what I'm missing here guys? And then tell what your source of straight Toluene is that you add to Shoe Goo?

    "Besides the Shoe Goo straight fixes waders and wading boots too. Don't try that with Fleximent " It would if you let it dry out to the thicker consistency of Shoe Goo wouldn't it?

  9. #19

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    Bass Bug,
    I think what you are missing, is that toluene is the #1 reportable component. At least on the MSDS sheet I found. It think that, overall, toluene is a smaller percentage of the overall compound. I do know that it evaporates out of a closed tube in one heck of a hurry!

    Kirk

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass_Bug View Post
    Ok, you've got me throughly confused. If Toluene is the solvent, then adding more Toluene to Shoe Goo which lists Toluene as the main ingredient (and then just petroleum distillate as the only other ingredient) does what? Make it thicker or thinner?
    These sorts of things (well, pretty much any "glue"-type deal) harden through solvent evaporation. Basically, there's two parts mixed together in the bottle: the solvent, and the bonding material.

    When you expose most of these things to air, the solvent evaporates and goes away, leaving the bonding material which is now hard and holding everything together. This is the reason why some paints stink like heck when they go on, but don't stink once they are dry.

    Whenever you want to thin one of these compounds, you add the appropriate solvent before you apply it.

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