gemrod, not to throw salt on the wound, but being a beginner myself who is and will be constantly asking for help, going as far as banning free furled leaders for the fact that someone is not getting credit would go farther into not giving free self tied flies, etc. because the inventor is not getting credit and so on. bugman said basically what i am getting at. im sure it took a lot to apologize, and im also sure that everyone appreciates it. just a beginners 2 cents, and please take it that way.