Orvis does it again

[WarrenP]

"you ever watched the "black rod test"

Never heard of it, but, I would really enjoy watching it! We the customer need to start making our own decisions on what we spend our money on. My opinion only is that we can no longer trust advertisement. I feel, at one time you could, but, money has now taken over and everything has a price. It really bothers me because there are some really great fly tyiers out there, some great casters out there, some great reels out there, some great rods out there, etc., and we do not know these people or these products because "money" is not backing them or sponsoring them.

[Bamboozle]

Unfortunately, preferences and features offered sometimes dictate what choices we make and how much we have to spend, regardless of how much we WANT to spend.

When I bought my graphite trout rods, I wanted a few things which I wasn't willing to compromise on:

• Graphite - I wanted graphite, not fiberglass. (Had I known then what I know now, I would have went the glass route although finding the action I desire in glass isn't cheap either).

• Action - medium to medium-slow in several lengths and line weights.

• Ferrule type - spigot

• Reel seat - downlocking with wood spacer, (good luck here)

• Number of sections - 3 or less, 4 if necessary

• Availability - I wasn't in the mood to wait several months to a year for a custom build IF I could even find an available blank I liked and I wasn't about to build my own.

• A warranty - if I had to spend over $300.

• Resale value - it isn't such a bad thing to be able to sell a used rod for almost as much as you paid for it new. Factory built rods have the advantage here in most cases.

So where did that leave me? I hate to break it to you but medium fast to super fast rods with uplocking reel seats and sleeve-over ferrules in 4-6 piece configurations are a dime a dozen at price points all over the map but good luck finding a TRUE medium to medium slow action graphite rod with a downlocking seat. Even a custom build isn't always the answer since most builders BUY their blanks from the fast rod companies.

I ended my search with the Winston DL-4 after finding some rod actions I defy anyone to find out there from anyone else at any price. If you never cast a 7'6" 3wt or 8'0" 3wt Winston DL-4, you have no idea what a true medium to medium slow graphite rod is all about.

So if you are particular, especially about rod action, you just can't buy anything. It's probably the biggest reason I haven't bought a graphite rod in years. I wouldn't want most of them as a GIFT! Even the current Winston offerings hold no interest to me for trout fishing and they no longer make a fiberglass rod which is my new passion.

Could I have compromised on a few features, absolutely with the exception of action preference which is personal and the biggest factor in my choice of a rod. If I didn't find those Winston's a few years back, I would still be fishing exclusively with bamboo which is hardly the thriftiest choice.

So sometimes you end up with bling and a high price for a reason. Why doesn't TFO make a slow rod with a downlocking seat and spigot ferrules for $100? I don't know, ask them. Maybe PRICE has something to do with it?

Could I cast further with the faster rod, maybe but after years of practice I can cast a whole line with my slow rods but we all know that means nothing, especially if you can't; and since all trout are always 30 feet away, why bother to learn how?

Could I catch as many fish with a fast $100 rod as I do with my slow high priced rod? Absolutely but I wouldn't have as much fun doing it.
and if fishing isn't fun...

...there are a whole lot of other things I could be doing that cost a lot less.

[Bill Dorgeloh]

I'm gonna really start something right now. I use a spinning rod most of the time.
It's 20 years old and so is the reel. A green Cardinal 3. Just can't seem to throw those size 22 ants out too far.

[flyguy66]

Oh ya! I've had a trout jump into my net as it hung on my back - Beat that! Give in. Your up against a human trout magnet!

"Good attitude is knowing when to laugh. A bad attitude is when you start believing in everything" - Fortune Cookie from the Golden Harvest Chinese Restuarant.

i once had a 24" brown trout jump into my boat...in a muddy warmwater lake where the fisheries biologist told me there were no trout. but that was nothing compared to the one that rang my doorbell while i was typing that last post!

[Arctic Grayling]

I don't see anything on the Orvis website on the Hydras yet. Guess they are waiting until after the Trade show in Denver and for their new catalogs to post them.

I wonder if they are made in the U.S?????

So Goddess, is a Hydra on your Christmas list???? I ran into one of Santa's elves on a stream the other day and he said that you had been very, very good this year!! Hear that Mojo?????

I think it was a big mistake when the major rod companies increased their prices the past two years while the economy was tanking. It probably drove many buyers to get their products on Ebay or from TFO or try some fiberglass rods. Maybe Orvis realizes this now and are trying to get back some of their sales?

I think I have enough of the top of the line rod models. Any purchases I make in the future will probably be in the used market, except for maybe some new fiberglass rods or a couple of bamboo rods if I win the lottery. I'm always on the lookout for quality vintage fiberglass rods and Winston IM6 models, even though I don't need them.

When I look at rod catalogs these days with $700 priced items I keep thinking about what Tom Morgan said. "A rod that is a good rod today, will always be a good rod." I've fished a lot of my IM6 Winstons and old glass rods this summer and they can do everything that the latest greatest graphite rods can do. I've even started using them for applications that I never dreamed I would use them for such as throwing big streamers and saltwater fishing for salmon. The results have been pretty amazing.

Some of the rods are a little heavier than the modern rods, but not much. I haven't noticed that the extra weight makes me tired or ache yet.

But then there are those days that I get skunked and start thinking that maybe I need to place an order for a new $1,250 rod from Tom Morgan Rodsmiths, or stop by Carlin's and see if he can cure the skunks with one of his rods for $1,500. But then I fall to sleep and wake up and remember that I can buy six or so Fenwicks or four or so IM6 rods with that money!!!!

[passlake]

Don't forget photography in the list of expensive hobbies for gearheads. Photographers will flock to get that new 35mm f/1.4 lens despite the fact that they have perfectly good 35mm f/1.8 and 35mmf/2 lenses in the closet at home.

Unfortunately, my three hobbies are flyfishing, golf and photography. My wife is an angel.

[Fly Goddess]

Hi there Arctic. Fun post huh? Just letting people know that they can own a Helios with a little lesser hardware and a tad heavier for $200 less and we find out who catches the most fish and who will never buy a rod over $250.

By the way, I know James C could cast a broom stick, but was it his choice to fish all day? Proving something and doing it all day, heck even a half of a day, are two entirely different things.

I am covered on the Plastic rods, but I have got some killer glass and a bamboo to build this fall. Just haven't sat down to put them together. Got a killer reels seat
WHICH BY THE WAY, where do you get the Helios reel seat for $15. That would have been my choice, but the ones I found were a bit more money.

Have a new Glass/Plastic blank that is AWESOME!!!! Can't wait to put it together and go drown a fly WITH MY UPPER END LINE

[nowindknots]

uh, ...... 66 for president!

Seriously, Kudos. Your responses are the most well thought out, grounded in principle, and cogent I have seen recently.

I came into fly fishing later in life and went down the equipment acquisition road. Fairly quickly I recognized the hype and wondered "What preceded all this?" That's when I started exploring vintage gear and the pleasure derived from this aspect of the sport has been thorough. That's what it's all about, right? Not saying it would be anyone else's cup of tea.

Part of my enjoyment of fishing is setting the gear down once in a while to just look at the clouds, smell the air, watch the sun dance through the ripples, spy an eagle soaring in the distance, or contemplate a salient aspect about the nature of reality. Like - why is bamboo so much more fun to fish than graphite? Is it because it feels more substantial, more real to the hand? And why did glass get passed by since it is the best rod material - EVER.

God please help me change should I ever feel the need to cast any rod 39 straight hours.

And given the choice between a hot off the line Ferrari and a '54 Vette.... the Ferrari sits.

Jim

Arctic, I'm am the lucky possessor of (do we ever actually OWN art?) two of Chris's masterpieces. What pleasure to just look at them and feel them. They are both 7'6" 4 weights, one blond one flamed. The tug of a nice 14 inch rainbow is a true joy.

[Hoochman]

Exactly Flyguy66, I believe taste in wine just as in golf clubs, fly rods, etc is all subjective. Some people may have more refined palates than others, hence the wine rating systems (but most of those are skewed by ad dollars and again, personal taste), but some cheaper wines taste great, but may not be as complex as a higher end bottle. I'm not a wine snob, so I just drink what tastes good to me, my fav is about $14 a bottle. Same goes with anything that requires a certain amount of engineering. There will be subtle differences in the higher end models that many casters/angles may not feel or even care about. Like me playing golf. I can shoot a crappy score no matter what clubs I'm using. I can't really tell a difference in the feel, the swing, etc. In fly rods, I can sometimes tell a difference, sometimes I can't. Most things coming out in the new rod market seem evolutionary, not revolutionary. Like you said, graphite is graphite, just differences in modulus (IM6, IM7 etc are actually brand names, actual modulus of elasticity is measured by 'quantity x million modulus', the higher modulus the faster recovery from a static position, at least that's the way I understand it) but I believe many of the modern rods have advanced scrim technology (the material which is set between layers of graphite so the adhesive has something to stick to) and some high end rods are re-enforced with some type of modern layering material that allows rods to be built with higher modulus graphite/thinner walls (equaling lighter rods) while retaining strength. I can see where some rods may command a higher price (plus with the lifetime warranty, I'm sure some of that is built into the price of ALL rods). I think we all agree it's all subjective and the BIGGEST thing to remember is to just have fun out there and not worry about what rod you're fishing.

As for the evolution of fly fishing being: beginners go cheap, novices buy the 700 dollar model, then going back to cheap for the experts...hmmm, I'd say that's a pretty broad statement.

Regarding my comment about manfs needing to back up their claims, I was talking more about swing weight and strength. I'd just like to know how they come up with this. A postal scale will show the weight, easy. But how do you measure to see if your rod is tougher or has a lower swing weight than a competitors. I'd just like to see that data from ALL manfs making those claims.

I tend to look at it like this. I buy my duck calls from duck call makers here in the US who hand turn and tune each call. I like the fact my calls are made that way and take pride in ownership. Same with my high end flyrods. The end game is the same and I'm more for having fun and preserving the resource, be it fishing or hunting, more than what call is around the neck of the guy next to me or what rod he's holding.

B.

[Cold]

If you never cast a 7'6" 3wt or 8'0" 3wt Winston DL-4, you have no idea what a true medium to medium slow graphite rod is all about.

No offense intended...but that's about as clear an example of a "fly snob" comment as i've seen on these boards in a long time.

Whether it was intended as such or not, that "if you dont meet my personal, arbitrary requirement, your opinion doesn't count" attitude is what drives many people away from the sport.

Now mind you, I'm not saying that anyone here IS a snob...but that comment really perfectly distilled the attitude that really gets me.