How dry flies float on the water

[skondolf]

I posted this question on another board I frequent and didn't receive any replies. So, maybe it's a stupid question but I'm still going to ask it here.

How should flies sit when on the water - specifically Catskill Dry flies?

I was fishing a local stream yesterday and got into a Hendrickson hatch so I tied on a #14 Red Quill to 5x fluoro tippet. Casting the fly out it would sometimes land upright floating normally and other times it would land with the tail fibers pointing straight down underwater and the nose up - floating along supported by the hackle collar only. Didn't happen all the time but enough that I noticed.

I'm using spade hackle for my tails purchased from Collins Hackle Farm and they're very stiff. I don't flare my tails (at least not intentionally) - I like them in as tight a bunch as possible.

I guess I've never really noticed this before so I'm wondering if it's normal for this to happen periodically? Do most of you guys somehow flare your tails? Am I over-obsessing here?

I use Gink as my floatant and perhaps it's just a signal that I need to apply more?

On a bright note the trout didn't seem to mind very much - I did VERY well for my first time out this season.

[Eight Thumbs]

Hi Steve,

Your question highlights the reason that so many people have switches to tying and using parachute versions of the traditional Catskill dry flies. Even well tied and well proportioned Catskill flies spend a significant portion of your fishing time floating wrong, as you've noticed. I believe that the Parachute Adams has replaced the traditional Adams as the most popular fly at Orvis. Reasons to use parachutes:

1. They land right most of the time
2. They are much easier to tie (once you get the hang of them)
3. You can use lower quality hackle of a larger size
4. They work just as well or better than the traditional fly.
5. They are easy to see with white or high-vis wing posts

Parachutes, try'um, you'll like'um! 8T

[Steven]

[SIZE=3]ICasting the fly out it would sometimes land upright floating normally and other times it would land with the tail fibers pointing straight down underwater and the nose up - floating along supported by the hackle collar only.

Yes.

.....Only kidding.

The idea that Catskill's sit on the tips of their hackles and the tips of their tails with the hook supported out of the water is ludicrous (I'm not saying you said this, but one reads this all the time). I doubt that after one or two floats that a Catskill even sits higher than a modern thorax pattern.

UK, flytier extraordinaire Ian Moutter has even argued that Catskills work because they are reasonable imitations of emergers. That tight, unflared tail doesn't stay above water, but rather goes underwater and represents a shuck. An article in Fly Tyer about 18 months or so ago, showed this exact same phenomenon.

FWIW, if you're not interested in the emerger aspect, I would tie the tails flared. From the trout's perspective, if the tail remains on the surface, I would imagine (I'm not the only one, this isn't an orginal thought) that a tight bundle of tail fibers doesn't really represent tails but rather a continuation of the body - effectively turning a size 16 into an 8.

My two bits.

-Steven

[skondolf]

Thanks for the replies so far. Yes, I know that if I was fishing on my desk my dry flies would sit nicely on the hackle and tail tips only - it's the pesky water/waves that messes it all up!

I've tied parachutes in the past and have a few versions although I do admit I don't fish them much. Maybe it's because when I first got into tying I just really liked the look of the more traditional catskill style flies that I've stayed with them. I dabbled with tying compardun patterns too but I just never seem to think about fishing them. Actually when the butt-end of my dry sinks below the water I guess I'm almost fishing a Klinkhammer!!

Maybe I need to add a 2nd question here - if I should flare my tails are we talking 2 distinct tails going off at an angle to each other (via a thread bump or pulling the thread tag end between the tailing) or do you try to get the tailing fibers to shoot off in some sort of horizontal fan-wing pattern? I'm curious how people flare out their tails on their dries.

[Flyrodde]

For my Adult dries I usually use micro fibets for my tails and always splay them with either a dubbing ball or with the thread tag method. Spares (1 to 3 on each side depending on the size) and long (1.5 -2 times body length) just like a natural. I mostly tie comparaduns, but have both parachutes and catskill versions and use the same tailing for all. This is just my personal prefference and don't know if the fish like it or not. If I am fishing emerging patterns I have both tailless versions and I use z-lon as tailing, again spares but only the length of the body.

[JohnScott]

skondolf -

Can't speak to your Catskill style flies, but coincidentally I just posted a photo of some Henry's Fork baetis spinners in a natural setting.

I didn't realize it until I cropped and enlarged the pics, but they show how a baetis mayfly rests on calm water, and presumably how they will look while drifting on moving water as well.

The key is that they are ON the water, not in it. Notice the shadows, even of the tails and legs, on the water as the baetis rests on the surface.

Just something to think about - a fish's point of view, not a fly tiers point of view.

John

[Jgoding]

I would say the tail was too sparse or too short maybe? It could also have something to do with the hook you are using as well.

In general, when I tie dries, when I'm done I will take the fly out of the vice and drop it on the table a few times from about 8" up or so. If the fly is balanced correctly I find they will land sitting wings up etc, balanced on the hackle and tail. The key is having the tail long enough and able to support the fly from the back while the hackle matches the hook gap reasonably so the fly sits correctly and the hook has enough weight to counter the materials properly.

[hackleman57]

Just a quick note on the liquid floatant, Gink or any other brand.

I recommend that you only use it on a completely dry fly -- like when you first use the fly that particular day. After it gets wet, more floatant will just seal in the water and make the fly heavier and less buoyant. So after fishing the fly, use dessicant, which is just silica, to dry the fly.

We call the dissicant "shake 'n' bake," and that's the best way to get the fly floatin' high! Of course if you don't want it to sit high on the water . . .

Hope that helps.

Ron

[Steven]

Maybe I need to add a 2nd question here - if I should flare my tails are we talking 2 distinct tails going off at an angle to each other (via a thread bump or pulling the thread tag end between the tailing) or do you try to get the tailing fibers to shoot off in some sort of horizontal fan-wing pattern? I'm curious how people flare out their tails on their dries.

I'm a thread bump and flare guy for duns. Split Microfibbetts for spinners.

[Steven]

skondolf -

Can't speak to your Catskill style flies, but coincidentally I just posted a photo of some Henry's Fork baetis spinners in a natural setting.

I didn't realize it until I cropped and enlarged the pics, but they show how a baetis mayfly rests on calm water, and presumably how they will look while drifting on moving water as well.

The key is that they are ON the water, not in it. Notice the shadows, even of the tails and legs, on the water as the baetis rests on the surface.

Just something to think about - a fish's point of view, not a fly tiers point of view.

John

I'm not sure you can extrapolate how a dun sits on the water by looking at how a spinner sits.