Flurled leader machine (auto)

[Denny]

Several years ago Skip Shorb and Jim Hatfield, each made a motor driven Flurled leader machine. A drill motor does not give a perfect, exact same twist, tight twist as does the motor driven machine. (my personal opinion only)
Skip had his at the Sow bug and demonstrated. Later he brought it out to Tony's house and several of us used his machine, under the guiding hands of Skip, the Master!

Kenny & I are fishing with intermediate lines that have a sink rate of 1 1/2 ips. None of the furled leaders we have tried sink level with the line. Knowing Fluorocarbon is heavier than water should sink with our lines. (I have always been pretty much a dry fly fisherman but Kenny is teaching me to Nymph) We both fish with furled so wanted to continue to use them. A friend had already tried some of fluorocarbon and sent me a couple. They were nice but the twist was not what I really wanted. They were not twisted from the finest diameter, nor was the twist tight enough.
I searched and at this time find 2 lb test, the smallest and finest on the market. It is pricey,
But as we do not intend to sell them, our use only, dipped into the pocket and bought a few spools.

There comes a question, how tight do you twist a leader as you initially twist. There are a lot of opinions, articles written by far more intelligent men than I. It makes no difference of the RPMs of your twisting devise. I asked the above question of Jim Hatfield. He answered, "Until just before it breaks" Interesting but true. Now how in the heck can I do it?

On each different thread we use, we first set up the machine with the pegs (mine are PVC and can be plugged into any number of different formulas on the board, sure work nicer than a dowel as they are slick) Stop watch in hand, turn on the machine and hit the go button on the SW. When the material breaks, hit the stop button. We keep exact records of what was done, material, times, before twist length, finished length. Now we just subtract 10 seconds for the time of twist for this taper/material.

It is surprising how perfect they all come out. I am pleased with the results we are getting.
This machine is not my idea. The idea came from Skip & Jim. I only modified the components and gear set up. It is not rocket science. I made my own shafts from 5/16 drill stock. (the 900 RPM motor had a 5/16 shaft) Used ball bearing races to support all shaft ends. Two sets of gears, pinned to the shafts. I have no fancy metal working machines, only cabinet shop stuff. I feel anyone that would want to build one of these, could.

I have always used the Shorb loop, no rings. Right after Skip came up with the idea and Dr. Bruce Whittle sat and drew out the original on a napkin, I was given a copy and personal instruction on how to put the loop in both ends. I still have a photo of the original drawing.

I am willing to give any and all info to anyone interested in parts, costs etc.

Will try and post a couple photos. am not sure I can but.

Do not PM me, send e-mail denny@conranch.com

Denny

[ducksterman]

Denny, I'll step in here and try to cover some things but the most exhaustive info on furled leaders is here..

http://furledleaders.proboards26.com/index.cgi?

Re: twist tightness I'm with you the tighter the better...sounds like you have developed an accurate system.

The other way to do it is "just before pigtailing"....and each material does indeed vary.

You didn't say if you twist both legs at the same time for uniformity but you can do that by using a hair braider.

All this stuff is covered in that web site. There is so much info it can be hard to find.

As far as motor source goes ...what did you use?...I would think a sewing machine motor would be great.

BTW some folks on this site have some very sophisticated boards...most impressive.

[Denny]

Both legs of my leaders are twisted at the same time. A spring loaded devise is hooked to the end where the turn around peg was. After twisting according to the stop watch, both legs are moved to the center shaft, which rotates opposite. I never have to remove my leader until completed. No standing the board up etc.
My motor is an inexpensive one, $9.00, turns 900 RPM. With my gears, I am not sure of the
shaft RPM. Do not care. My motor has a gear reduction on it. Already quite strong and easily mounted.
The alignment of the three shafts is very critical. Positioning the bernings exact makes the unit run friction free.
You can not over or under twist the counter twist. It will by itself twist/untwist if you are not perfect. I can actually see the leader "relax" when counter twisted correctly.
My machine is much like a hair braider, just more user friendly.

My machine is more sophisticated and faster, easier to use. Far different than the first board I made and used 7 years ago. I am not new to making furled leader making. Am still learning though.

Denny

[JohnScott]

Denny -

Your system is quite similar to the one I use - except mine is hand powered. I have a gearbox on the butt end housing a driving gear with a 3:1 ratio to the two gears that twist and then furl the thread. I also have a "manual" tensioner, which is shock cord which controls tension on a moving post at the tip end.

The working ( butt ) end.



Hooks to hold the butt ends of material.



The board with posts at 40% butt section, 30% mid section and 30% tip section spacing.



The traveling post and shock cord at tip end.



The debarbed fish hook on the traveling post makes it easy to configure the material and is an ideal way to incorporate a tip ring into the leader before it is twisted.

A young fellow here in Idaho Falls is building a power version of my set up. It will likely closely resemble yours. He is going to add a digital counter and work off formulas developed by our local furled leader guru Karl Amonson.

John

[WarrenP]

Denny,

Very nice set-up! Makes my furling board look like an antique! You mentioned sink rate with fluorocarbon and I thought I would throw this out and maybe it is something you may want to experiment with. I have made my furled leaders from just about everything out there and the only material that I am happy with is Berkley Vanish Transition Fluorocarbon. This material makes a furled leader that sinks faster than anything I have tried. Make sure to get the Vanish Transition. It comes in the gold or red and I have always used the gold. I have tried the Berkley Vanish Fluorocarbon line and it does not sink like their Transition Fluorocarbon. The Transition does not come in 2 pound test. The smallest is 4 pound test. I wish they made Transition in 2 pound test so I could try it. My research has turned up that P-Line makes a fluorocarbon called Halo and it does come in 2 pound test and it states that it is made with a higher density material and it will sink faster than other fluorocarbon, but, the reviews I have read on it state it has really bad memory problems and the knot strength is not good. Since they want $20 for 200 yards of it in 2 pound test, I am not willing to make the gamble after reading the memory/knot strength problems.

I guess I will stick with Berkley Vanish Transition Fluorocarbon since it works real well for me. I thought you might want to try a furled leader made from the Transition to see if it sinks at the rate you are looking for.

[Kaboom1]

Denny
I have a powered board also. Mine is set up at the tip end with a weight system and a swivel that attaches to the tip end of the leader. I adjust the weight based on the type of material that I am furling. With this system, the leader furls on it's own. The tightness of the furl is determined by the amount of weight used. Here are a couple of pictures...

First the weight and pulley system...


A shot of the power head. It is powered by a sewing machine motor not seen in this picture.



I will have to get a couple of shots of the motor/pulley system and the swivel at the tip end of the leader. I will post them ASAP.

Brad

[ducksterman]

K, I'd really like to see the motor pulley system.

[CO_Flyfisher]

Comparitively speaking, I'm still a rank amatuer on this subject, however I will give you my engineering (rocket scientist) take on this.

I was taught to furl until the line pulls down to 90% of the original length. When I first started, I did some experimenting to see if and how much further I could go using several different materials. I found that 10% (9.5" out of 94 inches) is a pretty good stopping point. Much beyond that and the material snapped.

FYI, when you unclamp the tip end of the leader after spinning up both legs, the two legs will even out and you will have the same number of twists in each leg as long as you twisted them roughly close to the same. I dare anyone to prove me otherwise (I know how long it takes to count those twists...).

Also, FWIW, I have weighed the 7' leaders made with the 4# Berkely Vanish Transition fluorocarbon. The "Gold" color weighs in at 17.1 grains, and the "Crimson" color weighs in at 15.8 grains. Comparitively, 7' leaders made with 4# Stren clear/blue fluorescent weigh only a mere 6.9 grains.

IF one could make these leaders with 2# test of the Transition Gold, keep in mind that they would NOT weigh as much, and therefore they would not sink nearly as fast. That is the one thing I really DO like about the 7' Transition Gold leaders - I do not "hafta" to use any additional weight (split shot) to pull the line down. I usually use at least one small (16-20) beadhead nymph in my rigs anyway, and that is more than sufficient. What is nice is this set-up can be fished in 6" of water just as well as it fishes in 6' of water.

[Denny]

I posted this photo once before, apologize to those who do not want to see it again.
Perhaps I should take additional (better) photos.

I made a shaft extension for the motor. ran the front end through a beating race and staked it between a front section of poly carb and 1/2" plywood, then the hook, soldered into a hole in the end. This one rotates opposite to the outside two. installed gear on the shaft.

Made 2 more shafts, both installed in front and back bearing races. (tricky alignment for all 3 shafts) They can not be too tight or motor will not turn properly. Gears installed (same size)
on both of these shafts. hooks soldered into hole in ends of shafts. (these shafts have a hole, tapped threads and bolt installed so the shaft can not run out while in operation.

Because I feel the twist should be to the point of just before it breaks. I tighten under a stop watch all products used until I have breakage, subtract 10 seconds, Presto a perfect FL each time.

Yes, I could figure out by simple math how many turns etc but why? 10 seconds - works for me.

I do use Berkley Trilene Fluorocarbon, 2 lb. for my sink FLs. I purchase it in 200 yd spools. It is .006" dia. I fished them on my recent trip to Alaska and found they worked perfect. I attach them to my Rio Lake Line which is an intermediate line. Sinks 1 1/2 ips. the FL sinks almost exactly the same with a nymph or soft hackle fly (weighted) Simple to count down in seconds how deep I am wanting to fish.

All my other FL for dries are done with 6/0 UNI in Fire Orange. I do coat them with red can Mucilin but am experimenting with Johnsons paste wax. I feel for fishing dries I need to coat them. A FL is like a small dia rope. All the areas from the twisted material leaves a space which can and does collect water that will spray onto the water, making a good presentation difficult if possible at all. By filling these voids with floatant or whatever floats your boat keeps it riding on top of the film.

I used a drill motor for several years and enjoyed fishing my FL. I just wanted to have a more perfect twist in my FL. Works for me.

Do a mouse over on the photo, will give you a larger version.

Denny

[JohnScott]

...All my other FL for dries are done with 6/0 UNI in Fire Orange. I do coat them with red can Mucilin but am experimenting with Johnsons paste wax. I feel for fishing dries I need to coat them. A FL is like a small dia rope. All the areas from the twisted material leaves a space which can and does collect water that will spray onto the water, making a good presentation difficult if possible at all. By filling these voids with floatant or whatever floats your boat keeps it riding on top of the film....Denny

Denny -

Love the fire orange idea. Certainly agree with you that the color of a furled leader just doesn't affect catch rate.

As far as floating or submerged furled leaders, I guess I just have to balance the discussion by speaking up for the few of us who prefer the submerged leader. I can see that in some situations ( stillwater and very soft, glassy surfaced runs, for example ) "spray" might be a factor. But the spray will typically happen on the backcast, and if one is still concerned about it, a single false cast away from the direction of the target fish will take care of the rest of it.

Thread furled leaders are so supple that they will drift along submerged totally absorbing every little mini-current. With a supple tippet material, the drift is about as perfect as it can get both for dries, wets, and nymphs, weighted or not.

I tried using floatant on some of my thread furled leaders. That didn't work as well for me as the untreated thread leaders. I'm wondering if you spent a number of outings using untreated leaders and let them submerge, if you would go back to trying to make them float ??

CO flyfisher made an interesting comment on a thread on this subject that the floating furled leader let him mend better, using the example of holding a fly in the quiet water behind a rock with currents off each side of the rock. That may be more a matter of experience and skill than what a floating leader vs a submerged leader will accomplish in that situation ?? Granted, from what CO has said about the places he fishes, it sounds like he encounters more pronounced situations of that nature than I do.

Whatever, this all does make for some interesting discussions, and I certainly have benefited from a number of threads on the subject of furled leaders and furling mechanisms. One of these days, if I decide to build another jig, I plan to incorporate some of the ideas I've picked up into that jig. And if and when I routinely fish either exceptionally soft water or totally serious pocket water, I MAY EVEN CONCEDE TO USING SOMETHING TO FLOAT MY FURLED LEADERS.** At least long enough to make an informed decision, again, how they fit into my way of approaching the water.

John

**OMG, did I actually say that ??