Copying flies from the past

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

Ok, from time to time I've posted about some old flies that I used to fish as a kid with my Grandfather. One was the Parmachene Belle (often called a Par-Belle or even just P-Belle) the other we called a "P-Beau", but I realise that is not the correct name for the pattern.

Anyway, I had forgotten what the pattern for the mystery fly was, I just remembered it as being redder than the P-Belle. Chatting over the internet with me in New Zealand and my brother in Nova Scotia, we recovered what we thought it looked like (in short, a P-Belle with a red body rather than a yellow one). We were close actually.

Since comming home, I've had a scrounge through my Grandfather's old fishing gear and found examples of both flies. I usually tie wee wets with quite sparse beards, throats, or "false hackles" (all different names for the same thing - tying in a clump of fibres underneath the hook). What I've noticed about these is that they were tied with full collar hackles, and the wings are placed over top of the upper half of the hackle. This creates a neat shroud around the body, an effect that I now remember and realise this is why my own "P-Belles" never quite looked "right" to me.

Anyway, trying to recreate this look has been driving me bonkers. If I tie the hackle full enough, getting the wings to sit properly overtop the hackle is a nightmare, and if I use less hackle so the wings will set, then the shroud effect isn't created because the hackle is too sparse! What I've resorted to is to wrapp the full hackle, then pull the top half down and under. This fills out the hackle underneath, and allows me to sit the wing on top. It's not quite the same, but ok for now.

Sorry for the poor quality photos. I've not found a good location to take photo's yet.

Here's an "original P-Belle":


And here's my cheat version:


And here's an original "misnamed P-Beau":


And here's my cheat version: (I don't have any jungle cock at the moment)


All of these have been tied on size 8 hooks, which are much bigger than what I'm used to using. I usually fish size 12s and 14s, with size 10s being my "large flies". These look monstrous to me, and the hackles also look huge to what I usually tie, but because of these differences I think they should be fun to fish. I've tied up a bunch of flies using this pull under hackle technique now so I'm developing a box of large full figured flies.

- Jeff

[Grubb]

I don't know alot about this, but it looks like to me the older flies are tyed with softer hackle, like maybe hen as aposed to male hack. I'm not sure, but I do remember reading alot about the older hackle not being of the same quality as hackle today. The softer hackle maybe making it easier to set the wings. Just a thought...

[10ae1203]

I don't know alot about this, but it looks like to me the older flies are tyed with softer hackle, like maybe hen as aposed to male hack. I'm not sure, but I do remember reading alot about the older hackle not being of the same quality as hackle today. The softer hackle maybe making it easier to set the wings. Just a thought...

I was just thinking about the same thing looking at the bigger pix. I bet some hen feathers or something sold as a bass feather would be more flexible.

I like wet flies and use some hen feathers. They aren't so stiff.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Grubb and 10ae1203,

I think you are probably right as the hackle fibres are much webbier on the older ones. I bet hen saddle hackles were used, and that would solve things (I think). Hmmm, another oppertunity to go to the tying shop!

- Jeff

[William Fitzgerald]

The Parma Belle flies that I have tied by my father in the 30's for northern New England and Canada are all deer hair. Silver on the hook red above over white hair. All on streamer hooks and some 3 1/2 long double hook flies with large jungle cock. Red heads. Too bad Im not into posting photos--I also have grey ghost,black ghost,polor bear,mickey finn,golden demon,yellow peril and others. BILL

[JeffHamm]

Hi Bill,

I had heard that the P-Belle was tied as a bucktail (but using hackle fibres) and tied a few up back in New Zealand (I couldn't find any red quills - dyed quills are still nigh on impossible to find in NZ). They were very small (size 10 and 12). Anyway, they sat in my fly box for quite awhile, unfished for some reason. While out fishing on the Waihou, a stream I normally have a lot of luck on (it's filled with lots of small fiesty rainbows), I was just not feeling any love. Finally, I picked one of these "mini-streamers" out and started getting hits and skipped being skunked!

- Jeff

[Jeremy]

Jeff,

Yeah, those old flies are fine and thanks for posting the pics. Nostalgic and all but I'd buy yours first! I'm like that.

Nicely done!! That P'Belle has got to be one of the prettiest flies.


Not one of my ties. It just makes me feel good to look at it..*grins*

Jeremy.

[ol' blue]

I have an old tying book from 1940 or so that has a listed pattern for both the parmachene belle and the parmachene beau. It is a basic book that was part of "The Barnes Dollar Sports Library" called HOW TO TIE FLIES. Original price in 1940 was $1. The book also came with an insert called the A.B.C. method for fly tyers from The Fishcrafters. The Parma.Belle is also listed there as a standard pattern of the day. (I don't know any info on the pamphlet). The patterns listed in the book are as follows:

Tag: peacock herl Tail: scarlet and white Ribs: gold Body: Yellow floss or mohair Hackle: scarlet and white Wings: scarlet and white (P-Belle) or scarlet, White jungle cock (P-beau). It also has some low quality pictures of each as well.

Actually, it is a cool little book with some flies that I would like to try to tie just for fun (like the cow dung). There are 334 patterns listed in table form in the back. If you have any questions on it, let me know and I'll try to help if I can.